Get out!

Discussion in 'World Events' started by ThazzarBaal, Oct 19, 2023.

  1. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    The message seems clear enough. The question is what happens if they do. The result of sticking around is abundantly clear. Israel hamas war ... Civilians urged to leave Gaza asap.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. Unfortunately many of them can't.
     
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  5. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    I'm sure that's true. Many more can and I think that's very likely the point. Limiting casualties of war in a time of war against warring parties isn't an easy task. The warning ... I would actually suggest "urgent plea" for civilians to leave, have been issued ... Accordingly and I would suggest appropriately and consistently. Human shielding shows a lack of any value for life of those under their control. That has been the resounding tactic being utilized by those who initiated a 1300 Israeli casualty attack prior to Israel taking the measures they have now taken to defend their own citizens as well as those in Gaza against Hamas.
     
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  7. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    The hostage situation is also in play, which makes this incredibly tricky in handling...I would think. Goal seems to be to dismantle Hamas, limit the casualties, while taking measures to help ensure hostage liberation, including the Palestinian civilians who live in Gaza from Hamas.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    "Limit the casualties"?

    That's some thin messaging.
     
  9. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    Thin messaging? I'm unfamiliar with the usage. Civilians seem to be hostages of Hamas, there are also hostages termed hostages who are at risk. The human shield hostages (civilians) and those termed as being hostages are the ones who I am assuming are at risk, as well as those who Hamas has set themselves against. The strategic side of this war is to limit casualties or rather collateral damage, while addressing the enemy as the enemy.
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    The messaging isn't important. Reducing the number of noncombatants killed is.
     
  11. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    So I mentioned. So the messaging is unimportant to you or for noncombatants. Because having a voice is our first line of defense. If you're referring to collateral damage, then I'd suggest it has been mentioned, as well as elaborated on.
     
  12. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    There used to be a certain ex-moderator around these parts that I used to argue with all the time on this topic. I just want to say that I firmly believed all along that the recent very obviously deliberate massacre committed against civilians by Hamas was something this individual was hoping for and aiming to help facilitate, by complaining about the Israeli blockades trying to prevent it and doing everything in her power to make it seem like a one-sided colonial conflict. Those of you who've been around a long time probably know precisely who I'm speaking of. Well if my suspicions were correct then she got her wish, and whatever happens to the perpetrators as a consequence is completely deserved.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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  14. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    Why say that? What choices do Israel have after what has happened?
    Where are they supposed to attack?
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    Because they are bombing the places they know the hostages are being held.

    They do not seem that interested in getting the hostages back and ignored warnings about the attack in the lead up to it.

    What choices did they have indeed...

    We are witnessing another Nakba. While they bomb Gaza, Israel has armed settlers in the West Bank and they are killing Palestinians indiscriminately without repercussion.

    There is such a thing as a proportionate response. Tell me, what choices do the Palestinians have, after they were forced from their homes and into Gaza and imprisoned there for decades and have no way to escape the bombings of their occupiers? Seems to me the only lives that count or matter are not Palestinian ones. Israel doesn't give a crap about those hostages. If they did, October 7 would never have happened, because they would have taken those warnings seriously.

    Nothing like a war to stir up support. https://www.timesofisrael.com/many-...inept-chaotic-response-to-october-7-massacre/
     
  16. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    Unfortunately that is possibly where Hamas are holed up, who knows. Hard choices have to be made and saying the government "do not give a fig" about civilians is obviously a callous stupid comment.
    The attack was an act of war resulting in the deaths of around 1400 Israelis, mainly civilians. Does that bother you?
    Rather than refer to the events of 1948 as an excuse for every single atrocity since why not focus on how we get out of the mess now?
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    Excuse?

    Compare how many Palestinians have died to Israelis since 1948.

    Or compare since October 7.

    And yes the attack does bother me, as it bothers most people. I also know that this did not come out of nowhere or crop up out of the blue or out of nothing. Ignore history at one's peril.

    But you tell me. Do you think levelling Gaza and slaughtering thousands and punishing millions, including the hostages is an appropriate response to the horror that occurred on the 7th?

    Do you think bombing civilians escaping on the route they were told to escape on and go to by Israel is an appropriate response? How about homes and apartment blocks, ambulances, refugee camps where those who evacuated were sheltering?

    Usually after a war, the displaced are allowed to return home. Close to one million people were forced from their homes, their belongings and personal effects taken from them, and they have never been allowed to return. Those "events" in 1948 was ethnic cleansing and it continues to this day. 1400 people died in a horrific attack, of which warnings were ignored and dismissed. Now, the Israeli government has used that to bomb millions into oblivion. The ethnic cleansing continues. And the Israeli government doesn't give a shit about those hostages.

    Just ask their families. The government has ignored them since that horrific day.
     
  18. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    The tunnel systems are where Hamas is as well as their communication systems. The civilians above them on the strip are shields, or rather they are being used as shields ... In hope that the civilian shields will prevent attacks against them. The hostages are apparently spread out, but I have no idea where.

    After over 1300 Israeli civilians were murdered by Hamas, I reckon Israel decided enough is enough. Foot soldiers are on the ground from what I understand. Given the circumstances, who would you honestly say has civilian populations best interest in mind? Don't forget the civilians in Gaza are being urged to leave before Israel takes action in those locations. If I'm not mistaken it's a red light, yellow light, green light go strategy being utilized. Green would be safer areas.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I think they are interested in getting the hostages back. They are even more interested in preventing more hostage-taking.

    Hamas being Hamas they will hide under/behind hostages, hospitals, daycare centers, old folks homes etc in the hopes that 1) Israel will not attack them there, or if they do, 2) Hamas will get some great footage of dismembered kids for their propaganda.
     
    Pinball1970 likes this.
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    Well, Israel does not have any civilian interests at heart, be it the Israeli hostages or the Palestinian civilians. Considering they have openly stated those civilians who do not evacuate are to he considered as terrorists, their rhetoric is one of no distinction between civilians and terrorists. Now, let's consider that half the population of Gaza are children..

    There is a disturbing trend to blame the victims for their own deaths. Give a million people 24 hours to evacuate, but leave them nowhere to go that is actually safe. Cut off their food, water, fuel and communications, and continue to blame them for their predicament. A predicament that was forced on them for decades by Israel.

    And then we ask, what is Israel supposed to do? Perhaps we should ask what Israel should not be doing and should never have been allowed to do.
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    Tell that to the families.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/galla...hostage-offer-phony-pushes-military-pressure/
     
  22. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    Ethic cleansing? Yes that did not begin in 1948 and it did not begin in Palestine.
    We can make this a numbers or history game if you want but I do not think it will get us anywhere.

    We are discussing the events and actions regarding 7th October which was an attempt by Hamas to kill and capture as many Israelis as possible.
    The strategy obviously pulled innocent Palestinian civilians into the firing line as rockets have been fired from those areas previously and they are now scattered in the area among the residents. So perhaps Hamas do not give a flying fig about their citizens? Israeli retaliation usually involves the deaths of innocents. It is inevitable, a bomb designed to take out combatants only has yet to be developed. The strike on the hospital demonstrated that.
    I am not saying there was peace before that but this is unprecedented.
    Israeli response? Take out Hamas and request civilians leave the area as quickly as possible, that is a lot more wriggle room to escape slaughter than the Israelis were given.

    Unfortunately we have hard liners on both sides and the innocents will suffer.
    My ideology is certainly with the Israelis NOT because of Zionism but because of democracy.
    I have read enough rhetoric from Iran and other Islamic states that make it clear that they do not want the nation of Israel to exist.
    Israel do not want Hamas to exist anymore and I do not blame them. Perhaps the Palestinians could come to the table if they were out of the way?
    Do the Israelis want to annihilate the Palestinians?
    Surely you agree that they do not?
     
  23. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    It's a very difficult situation in Gaza, particularly for the civilians. As human shields go, they seem to be serving Hamas' purposes as intended. Your post is evidence of this. That's exactly why they use civilians as human shields.

    Beyond the reported events thus far that have lead to this conflict is unknown to to me, but as reported, as the events unfold for the world see, it would appear that Hamas is a very dangerous organization, who as reported, attacked murdered and have set themselves against the people of Israel.

    It is truly an ugly scene in Gaza ... A 25 mile strip from north to south ... From what I understand.
     

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