Germanwings Tragedy - Is it now all about the money?

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Yazata said:
If the door lockout timer was set at a longer period than it took to descend into the mountains, then the point is moot.
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except it does not rule out the incapacitation theory.

However regardless as Bells and others have pointed out it is the flight path deviation that is the key to the prosecutors case.
The reason I have been reluctant to simply accept that the co-pilot culpably altered the flight path is I wished to explore the possibility that an automatic emergency landing system may have been invoked due to an incapacitation in the cockpit. I wanted to find out if the A320 had a system in which it's flight could be managed in the event of a "dead man flying" situation.

If there was a system being used and that was automatically invoked by the copilots incapacitation then, combined with heightened security response ( door maintained in the fully locked position at all times when only one pilot on deck) could lead to a tragic combination of "in good faith" actions leading to disaster.

I have not found any reference of even inference towards such a system and in all cases deliberate pilot intervention is needed to alter the settings of the flight management systems.
 
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Speculation:

As to the motive of the co-pilot:
If one assumes for a moment that the testimony of the alleged stewardess girlfriend (BILD newspaper) was correct and that the co-pilot felt certain that his career was going to end due to medical issues then the actions he took in the cockpit were in fact what he wished to demonstrate and become famous for.
That the system in place regarding access to the cockpit was terribly flawed in the event that the person in the cock pit was dead or incapacitated or indeed suicidal ( as he appears to have been)

Further one could speculate that due to the recent Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist activity in Spain and France, heightened security may have been employed either systemically ( via Internal Memorandums ) or individually (word of mouth) that required that the cockpit door was maintained in the fully locked position at all times if only one pilot present. (contrary to standard design procedure)

I would speculate and suggest that the co-pilot was indeed suicidal due to a pending career end and that in his depressed state decided to make a statement about how he felt about security arrangements aboard the A320 with mixture of "Good will" "Grand illusions of heroic sacrifice" and a "Nasty revenge upon the "universe" for dealing his life's cards the way they have".
He may have felt he needed to justify his paranoia and probably be able to metaphorically say "I told you so" whilst requiting some sort of bizarre self fulfilling prophecy.

ie. "How would they help me if I got seriously sick in the cabin and the door was fully locked?"


I would not be surprised if we discover later
  • that the copilot had formally complained to Germanwings Administration about the potential for disaster but was ignored. (due to heightened security concerns)
  • that internal memorandum or "by flight team arrangement" allowed for the cockpit door to be fully locked, at all times, (knock required) as a paranoid reaction to heightened security fears.
and given the copilots youth and intelligence he may also have published his concerns on the internet. Which may yet be found or even time delayed emailed to authorities.
 
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Bells said:
Which would have meant that even if he put in the emergency code, it takes a while before they are able to enter that into the keypad and have the door open.

So even after 5 minutes, from when the captain arrived at the door after going to the bathroom, there may not have been enough time to initiate the emergency procedures to enter the cockpit. Also, the person in the cockpit can simply just relock the door.
And once again, you ignore the fact that the copilot set the autopilot to ensure the plane crashed into a mountain.
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The problem with this theory is that when the key pad is showing RED it is totally "shut down" and useless until reset occurs in 5-20 minutes. ( according to the manual)

RED LIGHT ON
Locked position: Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ;
emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a
preselected time (5 to 20 min).

By design access is totally denied for a minimum of 5 minutes.
The emergency access code can not be typed in, until the key pad reactivates after this time has passed.

The only way the captain could inform the co-pilot to open the door was by knocking. In this case he was heard to knock initially "gently" with no indication of urgency.
 
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Quantum Quack said:
The problem with this theory is that when the key pad is showing RED it is totally "shut down" and useless until reset occurs in 5-20 minutes. ( according to the manual)

RED LIGHT ON
Locked position: Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ;
emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a
preselected time (5 to 20 min).

By design access is totally denied for a minimum of 5 minutes.
The emergency access code can not be typed in, until the key pad reactivates after this time has passed.
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Yes, which is why even if after the 5 minutes the pilot entered the emergency codes into the keypad, he may not have had enough time to actually unlock the doors via the emergency codes if the door was set into the locked position when he arrived at he cockpit door and started to enter his code, because they take a couple of minutes to activate and then unlock the door once the 5 minutes is up.

That being said, if the copilot was incapacitated, the captain would have been able to gain access to the cockpit, since he would have been able to activate the emergency codes to enter the cockpit once the 5 minutes are up and they would have been up if the copilot set it to lock as soon as he had left the cockpit. The fact he was unable to shows that the copilot was not incapacitated because he ensured the door remained locked.

As for speculating why he did it. No one really knows and probably will never know. And the system in the cockpit is fine for someone who is incapacitated. As I said, if he was incapacitated, the captain would probably have been able to save the plane and the lives of those on board. But because he was not incapacitated, he was able to keep the door locked the whole time.
 
Not to mention, if the co-pilot was incapacitated... he wouldn't have been able to muck with the autopilot settings...
 
Bells said:
Yes, which is why even if after the 5 minutes the pilot entered the emergency codes into the keypad, he may not have had enough time to actually unlock the doors via the emergency codes if the door was set into the locked position when he arrived at he cockpit door and started to enter his code, because they take a couple of minutes to activate and then unlock the door once the 5 minutes is up.
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this assumes that the inhibition time was set to 5 minutes and not 20 minutes. If set to anything greater than 8 minutes entry by the captain would be impossible.

That being said, if the copilot was incapacitated, the captain would have been able to gain access to the cockpit, since he would have been able to activate the emergency codes to enter the cockpit once the 5 minutes are up and they would have been up if the copilot set it to lock as soon as he had left the cockpit. The fact he was unable to shows that the copilot was not incapacitated because he ensured the door remained locked.
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see above

As for speculating why he did it. No one really knows and probably will never know. And the system in the cockpit is fine for someone who is incapacitated. As I said, if he was incapacitated, the captain would probably have been able to save the plane and the lives of those on board. But because he was not incapacitated, he was able to keep the door locked the whole time.
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Unfortunately I totally disagree with this.
The inhibition can be set up to 20 minutes. An awful lot can happen in 20 minutes.
It only took 8 minutes for the plane to drop altitude from 38000 feet to approx. 6000 feet
(approx, 4000 feet per minute)
Also according to reports the captain was using the bathroom at the time the flight path altered.
The reported 8 minutes includes the time it took for the captain to finish and walk/run to the cockpit door and then knock gently (*?)
 
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Example scenario:
IF the cabin door is fully locked and the windscreen blows out and only one pilot ( now potentially dead) is at the helm during a descent to land phase. (not landing persee )
The other pilot may have to wait up to 20 minutes before gaining access to a depressurized cockpit.
I am not sure that over ride systems are in place for such an event.

Regardless, the same would apply if other incapacitation issues were occurring

effectively "dead man flying " for at least 20 minutes situation.
and this is why I wanted to know about emergency automatic flight control systems in the event of such an incident. ( so far none have been found)
 
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I'm sorry, that is one hell of a stretch... especially given what we now know about the co-pilots medical history...
 
Bells
Regards conspiracy theory:
I guess there is a potential for a conspiracy to hide the details to come into play.
If for example there was internal memorandum requesting, due to heightened security threat levels, that the cockpit door be maintained in the fully locked state contrary to normal procedures, then I guess those memo's will probably vanish.
Or if there was evidence of a word of mouth policy change then this will no doubt be subject to corporate denial.
If the co-pilot had formally lodged a concern about the door system then this document will probably disappear as well.
There is significant vested interest in huge compensation amounts and more importantly maintaining consumer confidence globally(*) so the possibility of a cover up conspiracy is quite strong IMO.

Would you agree?

*You may recall the fiasco associated with missing Boeing 777 flight MA370 and speculate on how locking the door may have played a critical role in the tragic outcome.
 
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Kittamaru said:
given what we now know about the co-pilots medical history...
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Reminds me of the Movie Minority Report.
To me the basic message of this story was that "A crime is not committed until it is actually committed"

Suicide does not happen until someone actually kills themselves.

The number of people secretly thinking about suicide today would be huge..IMO ...especially due to climate change confusion and terrorist activities.

eg. The number of psychiatrists seeking psychiatric help is a massive % yet they continue to practice psychiatry..

However the evidence that he deliberately hid medical problems from his employer may prove a certain criminality. But apparently it is common practice
 
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Quantum Quack said:
Example scenario:
IF the cabin door is fully locked and the windscreen blows out and only one pilot ( now potentially dead) is at the helm during a descent to land phase. (not landing persee )
The other pilot may have to wait up to 20 minutes before gaining access to a depressurized cockpit.
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Only if the remaining pilot is killed by the windscreen blowout - but just before he dies, locks out the door. That seems unlikely.
and this is why I wanted to know about emergency automatic flight control systems in the event of such an incident. ( so far none have been found)
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Thank goodness.
 
Quantum Quack said:
Bells
Regards conspiracy theory:
I guess there is a potential for a conspiracy to hide the details to come into play.
If for example there was internal memorandum requesting, due to heightened security threat levels, that the cockpit door be maintained in the fully locked state contrary to normal procedures, then I guess those memo's will probably vanish.
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Still does not explain why the co-pilot changed the auto pilot settings so that the plane would crash.

Or if there was evidence of a word of mouth policy change then this will no doubt be subject to corporate denial.
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See above.

If the co-pilot had formally lodged a concern about the door system then this document will probably disappear as well.
There is significant vested interest in huge compensation amounts and more importantly maintaining consumer confidence globally(*) so the possibility of a cover up conspiracy is quite strong IMO.
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Are you trying to suggest that the co-pilot flew the plane into a mountain to prove a point about your theory of the possibility of door being "locked" at all times policy?

Would you agree?
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No, I wouldn't.

*You may recall the fiasco associated with missing Boeing 777 flight MA370 and speculate on how locking the door may have played a critical role in the tragic outcome.
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I do not recall any discussion about locking the door with regards to that plane.
 
Bells said:
Still does not explain why the co-pilot changed the auto pilot settings so that the plane would crash.


See above.


Are you trying to suggest that the co-pilot flew the plane into a mountain to prove a point about your theory of the possibility of door being "locked" at all times policy?


No, I wouldn't.


I do not recall any discussion about locking the door with regards to that plane.
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well you are fully entitled to your opinion.. regardless of how absurd I might find it...

*when thinking about evidence, I thought I might take a screen shot of your post to add to my large collection of similar exchanges here at sciforums.

screenshot1011-20150331.jpg

screenshot1012-20150331.jpg


I use them to find out where I am going wrong. I have friends that help me with this. I hope you don't mind?
 
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billvon said:
Only if the remaining pilot is killed by the windscreen blowout - but just before he dies, locks out the door. That seems unlikely.
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Did you miss the

"If the cabin door is fully locked" bit from the post you are responding to deliberately or accidentally?
 
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News report from :
National Broadcaster (just in):
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...for-suicidal-tendencies/6360548?section=world
"The Germanwings co-pilot suspected of deliberately crashing an aircraft into a French mountain last week had been treated in the past for suicidal tendencies, German state prosecutors say.

"Several years ago before obtaining his pilot's licence the co-pilot was in a long period of psychotherapeutic treatment with noticeable suicidal tendencies," the prosecutors' office in Dusseldorf said in a statement."

Notice the emphasis in bold "suspected"
and further from the same article:

The office quoted "relevant medical documentation" as the basis for its findings, adding that since that period Lubitz had not shown any signs of suicidal behaviour or aggressive tendencies towards others in visits to doctors.

One could quite reasonably question the relevance of treatment obtained 7 years ago other than to say that the employer continued to employ him in full knowledge of that treatment.
 
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Kittamaru said:
and yet he locked the pilot out of the cockpit
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Sure not much doubt about that...
It's a matter of when he locked the captain out.
Did he lock the Captain out before the Captain returned to the cockpit door or after the Captain knocked?

Reports indicated ONLY that he refused entry. ( refused to unlock the door - as there was no response from the co-pilot at all except normal breathing)
This is not the same as saying he locked the door when the Captain knocked. IMO
 
There is another bit of speculation that can be thrown into the pot...
Eye witnesses initially reported hearing strange noises coming from the plane, 2 long duration sounds.

Is it possible that the co-pilot also deactivated the automatic cabin pressure relief valves ( located at rear of plane) and the plane was gaining internal pressure as it reduced altitude from 38000 feet?

Normally in the event of an automatic relief valve failure the pilot has to manually toggle the valve to ensure internal pressure does not exceed safety limits. According to wiki on "a320 cabin environment"

If the above was the case then the airplane was gaining a tremendous amount of internal pressure as it approached the ground from 38000 feet and may explain:
  1. The strange sounds ( mechanical venting 0f pressure )
  2. The totality of the planes destruction ( the plane would have literally pressure exploded upon impact.
just speculation...
 
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