Germanwings Tragedy - Is it now all about the money?

[Yazata]

I am concerned that Lufthansa, with the assistance of the aviation industry, may seek to force the world to accept

In other words, you are proposing the existence of a grand conspiracy, orchestrated by Lufthansa, that's able to control the German police, the French crash investigators, the world's news media and world public opinion. I find that idea outlandish.

that the tragedy of this flight was a criminal act

It certainly appears to be.

or that it was an act that it, as an organization, could not have prevented.

That's a very different proposition.

The reason for finding as such, could come down to the amount in dollars that the airline may have to pay in compensation to the victims families and the damage done to the airline industries credibility in the eyes of the consumer.

How would showing that the crash was an intentional and willful act by one of the airline's most trusted agents and representatives reduce their liability?

Proposition:

If the co-pilot was found to have (1) deliberately ( culpably ) locked the pilot out and destroyed the plane and (2) could be claimed to have been "legally sane" at the time, then a criminal act has been carried out.

Agreed.

The compensation paid out would then possibly be subject to "victims of crime" type provisions and not negligence to a duty of care by the airline.

The crash being a criminal act doesn't preclude civil lawsuits.

A promising line might be to argue negligence, alleging that the airline didn't vet its pilot sufficiently and didn't satisfactorily monitor his status subsequently. There's also a breach of contract aspect. An airline ticket is a contract that promises to deliver a passenger from point A to point B. This did not happen, apparently due to an intentional and willful act of the company's own representative on the airplane.

I would imagine that "Victims of Crime" compensation would be considerably less than the compensation that would be granted if the airline was found to be negligent. Or that the aircraft design had an inherent flaw that revealed itself in extraordinary circumstances.

Why can't it be both?

One of the factors that makes me suspicious is that I feel that a testimony of a stewardess that apparently had been dating the co-pilot has emerged indicating that the co-pilot may have planned in some way what was to eventually occur.

Reasons for doubt:

1. I have doubts about the veracity of this rather convenient stewardess revelation and wait for evidence that may support that the co-pilot has indeed actually had a relationship with this stewardess.

She was his girlfriend and was intimate with him. Who would be in a better position to know about his psychological state? Investigators would naturally seek out people like that. The suggestion that the company is telling her what to say is a little bizarre.

2. That the airlines investigation team has refused to release details of the medical reports supposedly in it's possession. Citing privacy regulations.

"Airlines investigation team"? (You just pulled that out of your butt, didn't you?) It was the hospital that has been treating him that refused to release his patient records to the media. I'm sure that the German police have the records (it might have required a subpoena).

3. That this young pilot has by all accounts been given a vote of confidence by all those who he has had contact with. ( family, friends and associates) except a stewardess who, by her own admission was or may have been negligent in not informing her employer of a potential threat therefore admitting to pseudo complicity in the actions he took.

You really hate her, don't you?

Eye witness testimony indicated strong and severe strange sounds emitted from the plane as it flew towards it's ultimate destruction

Large passenger aircraft passing overhead at low altitude are very loud. Especially when the sound is bouncing off mountains. It would be a very unusual occurrance in an Alpine valley, certain to get the attention of anyone nearby.

The wreckage of the plane appears to be extraordinary. (Entirely with few exceptions, shredded/disintegrated.)

Not unprecedented. That's what happens when you fly airliners into mountains at 500 miles per hour. Airliners are large and imposing, but they are built to be light, with thin aluminum and composite skins.

That the crucial voice recorder back box was "reportedly" seriously damaged and its recordings are critical in forming an opinion. I would assume that these boxes are typically designed to be virtually destruction proof.

The voice recorder was recovered. It was the data recorder that was damaged.

Suffice to say that I am not at all convinced at this stage that the co-pilot was culpable.

That normal practice may have been to keep the cabin door locked at all times. (possibly an individual agreement between the pilot and co-pilot and not formally industry policy)

Normal practice is to keep the cockpit door switch in the 'normal' position. That way it locks behind somebody, but can be opened from outside with a key pad. If the captain couldn't reenter that normal way, the switch would have had to have been moved to the 'lock' position.

That the co-pilot may have suffered an incapacitation due to the hidden medical condition that rendered him unable to open the door

Conceivable but unlikely it would have happened just then.

There's also the fact that the airliner's descent into the mountains was a controlled descent. The copilot was either flying the plane himself, or else had directed the autopilot to depart from its cruise trajectory.

That the co-pilot may have reacted badly to surreptitiously taking medication for his hidden condition at high altitude, immediately after the Pilot left the cabin

Conceivable but highly unlikely. The plane was pressurized. And this speculation wouldn't explain the controlled descent into terrain.

That the co-pilot either accidentally or because of his deterioration towards incapacitation may have over reacted and started an emergency decent process whilst forgetting that the pilot could not get back in to the cabin, due to the policy of locking the door, to take control and render assistance to the co-pilot. (The ultimate nightmare if the co-pilot was actually incapacitated but conscious.)

That's entirely speculative and doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Suicide in otherwise "normal" individuals is usually a "lonely act" and does not involve others directly.

Murder-suicides aren't all that uncommon.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Then the captain could have gained entry.

How?
If the door had already been fully locked?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Ultimately it is in the timing of events that will further clarify the situation. However the flight box that may have contained that information is apparently unavailable.
ie.
When exactly was the cabin door fully locked by the co-pilot?
When exactly was the decent of the plane ordered by the co-pilot?
What are the side effects of the anti depressant medications found when subjected to high altitude flight?


and so on...

 

[Quantum Quack]

In other words, you are proposing the existence of a grand conspiracy, orchestrated by Lufthansa, that's able to control the German police, the French crash investigators, the world's news media and world public opinion. I find that idea outlandish.

I find it outrageous that the world is and has condemned a man based on testimony of anonymous, close to the investigation sources. ( including an anonymous BILD promoted girlfriend )
I find it outrageous that families of victims, in their grief, are condemning a man before it has been proven that he is actually guilty. (Thus deflecting the blame from the actual entity /system responsible)
I find it outrageous that police testimony ("there are no singular elements so far" *?) is being ignored.
I find it outrageous that reports published in the BILD newspaper are granted more credibility than they usually deserve.

"Bild has been described as "notorious for its mix of gossip, inflammatory language, and sensationalism" and as having a huge influence on German politicians.[2] Its nearest English-language stylistic and journalistic equivalent is often considered to be the British national newspaper The Sun, the second highest selling European tabloid newspaper, with which it shares a degree of rivalry.[3][4][5]"
src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild

It may yet prove that the co-pilot is indeed guilty of mass murder, however significant financial vested interest in the outcome, and media frenzy to blame someone, may destroy our (the worlds) ability to discover the truth entirely

 

[Quantum Quack]

One thing that has been highlighted for me at least is that the following scenario is possible. ( Even if we choose to disregard the recent events)

Captains perspective:

• Captain of flight leaves the cockpit.
• As an extra security provision co-pilot is asked by the captain to fully lock the cabin door.
• Upon returning to the cockpit the captain is unable to gain access.
• Total silence is all he is greeted with when he knocks quietly to inform the co-pilot that the door needs to be unlocked.
  
• The door to the cockpit is locked and can't be breached.
• The captain is not at the controls.
• The situation in the flight cabin with regards to the co-pilot is essentially "unknown" and "unknowable"...
  
• The plane is descending at an incredible rate.
• He knows they are flying over mountainous regions.
  
• The Captain, almost immediately knows, he and all on board are now waiting to die as nothing can be done to save the plane.
• There are no emergency communication provisions outside the locked and inaccessible cockpit.
  
• The captain tries everything he can to breach the door knowing his efforts are being black box recorded.

We have a possible dead man flying situation...

Wonders what automatic systems are in place in the case of a Dead man flying situation?

 

[pjdude1219]

One thing that has been highlighted for me at least is that the following scenario is possible. ( Even if we choose to disregard the recent events)

Captains perspective:

• Captain of flight leaves the cockpit.
• As an extra security provision co-pilot is asked by the captain to fully lock the cabin door.
• Upon returning to the cockpit the captain is unable to gain access.
• Total silence is all he is greeted with when he knocks quietly to inform the co-pilot that the door needs to be unlocked.
  
• The door to the cockpit is locked and can't be breached.
• The captain is not at the controls.
• The situation in the flight cabin with regards to the co-pilot is essentially "unknown" and "unknowable"...
  
• The plane is descending at an incredible rate.
• He knows they are flying over mountainous regions.
  
• The Captain, almost immediately knows, he and all on board are now waiting to die as nothing can be done to save the plane.
• There are no emergency communication provisions outside the locked and inaccessible cockpit.
  
• The captain tries everything he can to breach the door knowing his efforts are being black box recorded.

We have a possible dead man flying situation...

Wonders what automatic systems are in place in the case of a Dead man flying situation?

your forgetting something the auto pilots settings were changed to cause it to crash.

 

[Quantum Quack]

your forgetting something the auto pilots settings were changed to cause it to crash.

According to who? (anonymous sources close to the investigation - perhaps?)
An over zealous French prosecutor?
When exactly was the flight path changed?
Was it an automatic emergency feature?
Or was it a last desperate attempt by the co-pilot to save the plane before loosing consciousness?

The details are apparently unavailable due to the flight data black box destruction. I believe...*?

 

[Bells]

One thing that has been highlighted for me at least is that the following scenario is possible.

Captains perspective:

• Captain of flight leaves the cockpit.
• As an extra security provision co-pilot is asked by the captain to fully lock the cabin door.
• Upon returning to the cockpit the captain is unable to gain access.
• Total silence is all he is greeted with when he knocks quietly to inform the co-pilot that the door needs to be unlocked.
  
• The door to the cockpit is locked and can't be breached.
• The captain is not at the controls.
• The situation in the flight cabin with regards to the co-pilot is essentially "unknown" and "unknowable"...
  
• The plane is descending at an incredible rate.
• He knows they are flying over mountainous regions.
  
• The Captain, almost immediately knows, he and all on board are now waiting to die as nothing can be done to save the plane.
• The captain tries everything he can to breach the door knowing his efforts are being recorded.

We have a possible dead man flying situation...

Wonders what automatic systems are in place in the case of a Dead man flying situation?

There is no evidence or reason for the captain to ask him to fully lock the door. The door locks automatically and the captain would have access to the cockpit by typing in the code on the keypad outside the door to regain entry.

Your little 'dead man flying' scenario still does not address the fact that the co-pilot had directly entered the flight path and the altitude the plane was to fly at in the auto-pilot. In short, he effectively steered the plane into that mountain. He wasn't a dead man flying the plane. He was breathing normally and very calm right to the end, in that his breathing did not change from the start to the end. The only thing we can take from that is that he was comfortable and resigned to his fate.

I find it outrageous that the world is and has condemned a man based on testimony of anonymous, close to the investigation sources. ( including an anonymous BILD promoted girlfriend )

She was his former intimate partner. Why wouldn't the authorities speak to her and they apparently did. She has also spoken to the media.

I find it outrageous that families of victims, in their grief, are condemning a man before it has been proven that he is actually guilty.

That would be because the authorities heard him turn off the alarms and they know by satellite tracking data that he deliberately set the plane's altitude to 100 feet.

The autopilot on the Germanwings Airbus A320 that crashed in the French Alps on Tuesday was switched to descend to 100 feet, its lowest possible setting, before it began its fatal plunge, according to data from a specialist aviation tracking service.

French prosecutors say 28-year-old German co-pilot Andreas Lubitz locked himself in the cockpit and adjusted the altitude setting on the Airbus A320, sending it plunging from its cruise altitude of 38,000 feet at a rate of 3,000 feet a minute.

Online web tracking service FlightRadar24 said its analysis of satellite tracking data had found that someone had changed the altitude to the minimum setting possible of 100 feet: well below the crash site lying at about 6,000 feet.

"Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 you can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the 'open descent' autopilot setting," Fredrik Lindahl, chief executive of the Swedish tracking service said by email.

He said FlightRadar24 had shared its data with French crash investigators at their request. The French BEA crash investigation agency was not available for comment.​

I find it outrageous that police testimony ("there are no singular elements so far" *?) is being ignored.

What police testimony is being ignored?

I find it outrageous that reports published in the BILD newspaper are granted more credibility than they usually deserve.

I am going off what the investigators say and off what professionals who have analysed the data says.

I find it outrageous that you are making every excuse under the sun for the co-pilot.

 

[Bells]

Mod Note

Moving this to Conspiracies sub-forum.

 

[Quantum Quack]

The very idea of a "dead man " flying situation is incredible to me... That a system is in place that can allow such a possibility based on the presumption that the person in a fully locked cockpit may remain healthy.

 

[Quantum Quack]

She was his former intimate partner. Why wouldn't the authorities speak to her and they apparently did. She has also spoken to the media.

but so was I... maybe I can contact BILD and make some money out of this.. Gosh a hidden Gay relationship would really stir them crazy eh?

oops!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Reported 2 days ago
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...lot-andreas-lubitzs-background-under-scrutiny

According to the German newspaper Bild, a former girlfriend of Lubitz, identified only as Mary W, said he had told her last year: “One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.”

credibility 0/10
remember 8 minutes of silence with a fully functional com's system.

As legal experts warned that the airline’s parent company, Lufthansa, could face compensation claims for hundreds of millions of dollars, Düsseldorf prosecutors said they had found the torn-up doctor’s note covering the day of the disaster – Tuesday 24 March.

credibility 9/10

“Medical documents were found that indicate an ongoing illness and appropriate medical treatment,” the statement said. “The circumstance that torn-up current medical certificates – also pertaining to the day of the act – were found, supports, after preliminary examination, the assumption that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and his professional circles.”

credibility 9/10
Most likely Common practice

No suicide note or claim of responsibility had been found, the prosecutors said.

credibility 10/10

“We should be cautious, of course. But in reality, based on what we know at this point, they are not going to be able to establish that. Whether it was a deliberate act or negligence, they’re going to be liable for a large sum of money.”

credibility 10/10

"The investigation into the crash has turned to Lubitz’s background after the disclosure by French prosecutors on Thursday that he appeared to have deliberately downed the plane in a rocky ravine."

Credibility 8/10 but only if we emphasize the word/term "Appeared to have" and presume he meant (Qualified by) "Initial evidence suggests".. blah blah blah

"Germany’s federal aviation office (LBA), which administers pilots’ licences, has reportedly asked Lufthansa for Lubitz’s files, and said it would pass them on to the French investigators.

“Anyone with a licence must report to an approved aviation doctor once a year and receive a suitability certificate,” a spokesman told the NTV news channel."

An LBA spokesman said the widely reported “special regular medical examination” (SIC) mark on Lubitz’s file could pertain to any medical problem.

credibility 9/10

The entire article is heavily influenced by the reporting of BILD which has a reputation that needs to be considered.
Therefore the credibility of the article is about 6/10 IMO

and this sort of reporting is what the world is using to make it's judgements.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Bells,
Why do you feel I am alluding to a deliberate conspiracy?

 

[Bells]

I would say look at the evidence, all of which points directly to the co-pilot who has a history of severe depression and burn out and who recently separated from his girlfriend and who had a medical issue, was barred from flying that day by his doctor but he failed to inform his employers of this and who had sick notes also declaring him unfit for work in his home. Then look at the evidence of the satellite tracking which actually has the time he entered the new altitude the plane was to fly at and his doing that and a few seconds later, the plane changes course and starts its descent. Then look at the evidence of what investigators heard going in in the cockpit and just outside of it. The captain going to the bathroom, then the change in the auto-pilot, then you hear the pilot trying to get back in and being ignored. The flight recorder, along with satellite tracking, all support the co-pilot deliberately flying that plane into that mountain.

Instead of looking for conspiracies, imagining that it could have been this or that, look at what is known. And what is known points directly to the co-pilot, who was breathing normally right to the end, which clearly indicates he was not in medical distress.

 

[Bells]

Bells,
Why do you feel I am alluding to a deliberate conspiracy?

From your comments about the ex-girlfriend, to your comments in the OP and posts after that. Even to the point of trying to invent the captain telling the co-pilot to put the door into "lock" after he left the cockpit, without any evidence that this occurred.

And then the fact that you continue to ignore the fact that the copilot deliberately entered the data into the auto-pilot and the plane changing course after this was entered, which clearly shows that it wasn't a case of a "dead" pilot or an unconscious one in the cockpit.

Comments such as this:

If the captain had found the door inappropriately locked after entering his code to gain access ( normal) his knocking would have been much more urgent and stressed. ( because he would know that he has been deliberately locked out immediately)
Apparently it took some time for the captain to realize he could not gain access to the flight cabin thus suggesting he expected the door to be fully locked.

He was reported to have knocked quietly and then a bit louder, and louder still, then he started pounding on the door and then he tried to break the door down and metallic sounds from the blows indicates he was using something, perhaps an axe, to try to break down the door, all while shouting at the co-pilot to open the door.

Then of course we have you discounting his ex-girlfriend..

but so was I... maybe I can contact BILD and make some money out of this.. Gosh a hidden Gay relationship would really stir them crazy eh?

oops!

Well now is your time to shine as a troll.

Let us know how you go with the subsequent fraud accusations and possible jail time for trying to interfere with a criminal investigation.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Instead of looking for conspiracies, imagining that it could have been this or that, look at what is known. And what is known points directly to the co-pilot, who was breathing normally right to the end, which clearly indicates he was not in medical distress.

But may indicate he was unconscious. Then we have to ask about the change to flight path and when exactly in the sequence of events on board this occurred.
Did he change the settings? All we know is that the settings were indeed changed.
Did he change the settings after the Captain knocked gently on the cockpit door or before?

You see, if he changed the settings before the Captain inexplicably knocked on the door the captain and all on board would have known that the plane was in descent mode. The captain would know that this was contrary to flight plan. He would not knock gently as he would infer an emergency was occurring. If he had been locked out against procedure he would also infer something serious was up.

One of the keys to this puzzle for me, is why the Captain is BB recorded as knocking on the door? ( gently )

 

[Quantum Quack]

Let us know how you go with the subsequent fraud accusations and possible jail time for trying to interfere with a criminal investigation.

certainly something that BILD may need to consider...

given that it is impossible to prove either way (unfalsifiable)
as I said I am waiting for evidence to support that he did indeed have a relationship with a stewardess as reported by the newspaper BILD
Her supposed testimony is fueling most of the flak.. yes?

 

[Quantum Quack]

He was reported to have knocked quietly and then a bit louder, and louder still, then he started pounding on the door and then he tried to break the door down and metallic sounds from the blows indicates he was using something, perhaps an axe, to try to break down the door, all while shouting at the co-pilot to open the door.

Other keys:

He, the captain, was not reported as attempting to access the intercom nor the key pad. ( as far as I have read)
Was there any reports of the captain trying to talk to the co-pilot via the intercom? (What did he say?)
Or that he attempted to use his code to enter the cockpit?
I don't think so...
Why would the Captain NOT use the intercom at least to try to persuade the co-pilot?
There should be heaps of voice data indicating the Captains frustration at not being able to talk to the co-pilot via the intercom or through the door, but apparently inexplicably there is none. Why?

It's not about conspiracy it's about critical thought and assessment free of sensationalism and spurious reporting.


Bells , Is the above considered as trolling by you? why?
Have I raised valid questions or not?... just curious...

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I don't know where you folks get your news, but today's Washington Post had a rather expansive story that covered just about everything. The copilot had a history of mental problems that his doctors ultimately said indicated that he should probably not be flying airliners anymore. Even worse, he even had a note from one saying that he should not be flying on the day in question.

Apparently German law is quite different from U.S. law. In our country the doctor would have been legally required to give that information to the airline, and none of this would have happened. That man would never have been allowed to fly an airplane again, not even a private plane.

As for the cockpit door, ever since 9/11 all airliners have been retrofitted with locks that cannot be opened from the outside. No one foresaw the possibility of a man, who for all intents and purposes was a terrorist, being able to lock himself alone in the cockpit because he was the fucking co-pilot!

This could not have happened on a U.S. airliner over U.S. territory.

I suppose the next thing they'll do is install an override on every airliner's controls that allow it to be taken over and controlled from the ground. That would be one hell of a landing, but the odds of arriving on the ground alive would at least be better than if the plane was under the control of a hijacker--or a slightly insane airline employee.

 

[Quantum Quack]

As for the cockpit door, ever since 9/11 all airliners have been retrofitted with locks that cannot be opened from the outside. No one foresaw the possibility of a man, who for all intents and purposes was a terrorist, being able to lock himself alone in the cockpit because he was the fucking co-pilot!

and no one obviously foresaw that a solitary pilot in the fully locked cockpit suffering a fatal heart attack (dead man flying) would prove to be any better or worse than a terrorist standing outside the door with a heap of c4 (conflated)

I suppose the next thing they'll do is install an override on every airliner's controls that allow it to be taken over and controlled from the ground. That would be one hell of a landing, but the odds of arriving on the ground alive would at least be better than if the plane was under the control of a hijacker--or a slightly insane airline employee.

and then be subject to possible hacking... uhm... I don't think so...