Forum Introduction

[Tiassa]

Here is the issue, then

Perhaps you can explain to me how it is that people, who consider themselves sane, can think that detailed mimicry equals reality?

It seems to me that the first thing you need to do in order to properly mimic a brain is to achieve an equal number of switches. Period. Anything short of that number of electrical pathways and you simply cannot include every detail of the brain. You are, at that point, merely projecting, extrapolating.

I'd like to offer a notion of Einstein:

However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research. ( http://www.stcloud.msus.edu/~lesikar/einstein/Prayer.htm )

In this sense, I feel that technology will eventually be able to put more switches than your brain in your fingernail.

There is no image of the brain which accurately describes the whole of its processes. Not to worry, tricorders are coming someday. Barring extinction by warfare or mystery disease, I fully expect humanity to achieve some marvelous technology in the near future. For instance I once asked what would happen when Hubble could see the predicted 5% further to the edge of the projected Universe. Well, I caught a story at space.com the other day that seems to have astronomers abuzz. (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/darkenergy_folo_010410.html) It may be a whole new Universe all over again, but the technology we're going to need is going to be stunning. I remember wishing for 256 kilobytes and being thrilled at the 8/16 "turbo" button for the processor. I remember being impressed at a 66 mhz chip. I had a curious experience recently the first time I saw the 1.4 gig P4. I shrugged it off. Apparently, I'm not impressed, but only because I know the big show's yet to come.

We haven't achieved a precise enough image of the brain in all its processes. In terms of Einstein's faith, I can say don't worry, we will. When that happens, we will begin manipulating the theoretic environment, a comparative test to determine the versimilitude of the artificial environment. By that time, it should start becoming apparent whether or not a full-blown mind upload can occur.

And if the scientists assemble enough switches, and arrange them just so, and do everything they can and are still unable to bring a spark of living consciousness to that environment, we will have proof at least that there is more to this phenomenon called life than we understand. Personally, for instance, I figure we're going to have to learn how to manipulate gravity with some precision before we can guarantee the stability of the brain's signature during transfer (making frogs float is cute, but insufficient). It's the only way I can think of--well, offhand--to prevent natural forces from upsetting a very unique electrical pattern.

Nobody says mimicry equals reality. If the pattern doesn't hold through the transfer, it isn't real, but a reconstruction. Essentially what mind uploading seems to seek is a more permanent brain. Essentially, they want to switch out the hard drive and the processor, and maintain the data.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Cris
Could you please define what you mean by the term 'faith'. You appear to use it frequently in a confusing manner.

Sorry, I do at that.
In this case, I was using the definition you appear to have for it, i.e. the equivalent of superstition.

At this time there is no demonstrable substance to MU since the research has only recently begun.

Total agreement here; there is no demonstrable substance.

I don't understand what you intend by 'play on words', and your strange reference to faith is out of place unless you can clarify your definition.

The 'play on words' thing is a reference to the slick way MU fans switch back and forth between reality and virtual reality paradigms, without appearing to notice.

A faith similar to religious faith plays no part in MU. Those who are involved have a 'hope' that they can achieve their goals and this hope is based on existing evidence of the pace of past technology changes. If this rate of progress slows down then MU will simply take longer to achieve.

Admittedly, the faith required for MU bears zero resemblance to real faith.
MU "faith" is truly blind, cannot distinguish between real and virtual reality and has great potential for humor.

Where does 'mimicry' enter into the MU debate? The objective of MU is a perfect copy of the original functions. There is no difference between a perfect copy and an original.

The obvious question at this point is: have you taken leave of your senses?
That might be too rude, so I will ask: do you not know what "copy" means?

The objective of MU is to use a more resilient substrate to hold brain functions instead of a biological medium.

Have you ever owned a mechanical device that is anywhere close to being as resilient as a biological unit, without requiring constant repair and maintenance?

Don’t try to visualize MU in religious terms. MU is an objective of applied science and if the scientists can see that the objective cannot be achieved then they will switch to a different objective. This work is directed at the natural world using existing knowledge. Religion deals with the unnatural world of spirits and gods. There is no overlap, and the different concepts cannot be combined.

I realize this may be difficult to accept, but I really did try to visualize MU in non-religious terms.
The urge to laughter becomes insurmountable when I do that.
Admittedly, I see no connection between the world of spirits and MU itself.
A better connection would definitely be made between the world of comedy and MU.

Originally posted by tiassa
It seems to me that the first thing you need to do in order to properly mimic a brain is to achieve an equal number of switches.

You need to get together with Cris on this. He feels that it is NOT mimicry.

I feel that technology will eventually be able to put more switches than your brain in your fingernail.

Well, not my fingernail. Perhaps you mean a chip the size of a fingernail.

There is no image of the brain which accurately describes the whole of its processes. Not to worry, tricorders are coming someday.

They're here already. A device called a tricorder was patented several years ago. Mind you, it was pathetic.

Barring extinction by warfare or mystery disease, I fully expect humanity to achieve some marvelous technology in the near future.

I see great advances in the field of comedy coming, myself.

We haven't achieved a precise enough image of the brain in all its processes. In terms of Einstein's faith, I can say don't worry, we will. When that happens, we will begin manipulating the theoretic environment, a comparative test to determine the versimilitude of the artificial environment. By that time, it should start becoming apparent whether or not a full-blown mind upload can occur.

A full-blown comedy explosion will occur for sure.
What in hell is a "theoretic environment?"
Your goddess (Mary Jane, I presume) is working overtime stimulating the lexical nonsense nodes in your brain.

And if the scientists assemble enough switches, and arrange them just so, and do everything they can and are still unable to bring a spark of living consciousness to that environment, we will have proof at least that there is more to this phenomenon called life than we understand.

Non-scientists figured this out thousands of years ago.
But hey, science plods on, oblivious to reality.

Personally, for instance, I figure we're going to have to learn how to manipulate gravity with some precision before we can guarantee the stability of the brain's signature during transfer (making frogs float is cute, but insufficient). It's the only way I can think of--well, offhand--to prevent natural forces from upsetting a very unique electrical pattern.

The script writers from Star Trek should be able to help with this.

As an aside, gravity manipulation or gravity management is a potentially important new field of study.
Many in the past have brushed off this important new field with bumper sticker type sloganizing, such as...
"Drinking problem?
I drink, I fall down, no problem."

But I think it is important that a person should be able to manage gravity, i.e. stand up without falling down.

If the pattern doesn't hold through the transfer, it isn't real, but a reconstruction. Essentially what mind uploading seems to seek is a more permanent brain. Essentially, they want to switch out the hard drive and the processor, and maintain the data.

You said a mouthful.
I'm thinking essentially the same thing.
I think MU fans need more permanent brains. The ones they have now seem to relinquish their grip on reality at unpredictable moments.

 

[wet1]

Ya know what they say, "Life is h**, then you die". I finally got lucky and this one horse town gotta a local provider. Till then it was long distance or nothing. Good luck!