Faster or Slower?

Sarkus said:
Nonsense. It is NOT relevant, and the maths DOES add up: speed of treadmill backward (relative to fixed frame) + movement speed of craft forwards (relative to fixed frame) = effective movement speed of craft on a flat length of static road. If in 1 second the car moves 1ft forward while the belt moves 2 ft back, the effective speed of the craft if it were on a flat road is 3 ft/s. Oh, look at that: it all adds up, mathematically!
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Laughing my ass off!

If in 1 second the car moves 1 foot then the speed of the car is 1 ft/sec. If the belt moves back 2 ft in 1 second then the speed of the belt is 2 ft/sec. The belt is 1 ft/sec FASTER than the car.

The CLOSING SPEED is 3 ft/sec, which is not a speed of one of the objects, it is a change in distance between the two objects over a duration of time! That is not a speed of an object!

"IF IT WERE ON A FLAT ROAD..." Laughing my ass off! How fast is the road going? If the road is going 3 ft/sec, and the car is going 3 ft/sec then the closing speed is 0 ft/sec. So the car on the road is not moving compared to the road! Unless of course you are claiming the CLOSING SPEED is 3 ft/sec, but you weren't talking about closing speed were you? "Nobody here is talking about closing speed." (rolls eyes)

You mix frames like it's going out of style! It is MORONIC to say "IF it were doing this then that." OUT-F'n-RAGEOUS!



Sarkus said:
, my time of taking you seriously is unfortunately at an end.
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See Ya! Hopefully you learn that 2 ft/sec is FASTER than 1 ft/sec. But I won't hold my breath!
 
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Ghost Appearance said:
So the craft moving with the belt with a zero relative speed to the belt is moving the SAME speed as the belt.
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Right.
Which direction is the belt moving, to the rear? Obviously!
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It can be moving in any direction at all.
So what needs to happen in order for the craft to be FASTER than the belt? Does the craft have to travel a greater distance towards the rear in the same amount of time?
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It needs to move with respect to the belt. If you are using the frame of the treadmill as your reference for "faster" and "slower" AND the treadmill is running at its normal speed, then the motion (with respect to the belt) will be towards the controls. This means that it will take a slightly longer time to reach the distal end of the belt than the point it was originally on.
 
billvon said:
It can be moving in any direction at all.
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We have already labeled the "front" to be towards the controls, and the "rear" where the belt rolls over the end. Word game much?

Do you agree the belt is traveling in a direction from the controls to the other end of the treadmill? (rolls eyes)
I guess when you're wrong you have to grasp for anything you can in order to prolong your BS, eh?

billvon said:
It needs to move with respect to the belt. If you are using the frame of the treadmill as your reference for "faster" and "slower" AND the treadmill is running at its normal speed, then the motion (with respect to the belt) will be towards the controls. This means that it will take a slightly longer time to reach the distal end of the belt than the point it was originally on.
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No! "Faster" simply means more distance per time. There is NO DIRECTION to the term "faster." 10 ft/sec is faster than 2 ft/sec. Period!

In order for the craft to be "faster than the belt" the craft has to have a greater speed (ft/sec) than the belt, relative to the frame of the treadmill (in either direction).

So a closing speed isn't going to cut it, because that is not a speed of an object, it is a change in distance between two objects over time.

In order to claim a "faster" both the belt and the craft have to have their own speed, and then you can compare the speeds and claim which speed is faster, 10 ft/sec or 2 ft/sec.

Measuring the speed of the belt against the frame of the treadmill will give the belt a speed in that frame.
Measuring the speed of the craft against the frame of the treadmill will give the craft a speed in that frame.
NOW they EACH have their own speed in that frame, and you can compare the two speeds and determine which is FASTER!

Get it yet?
 
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Sarkus said:
Your entire argument is a strawman compared to the video. If you can't keep up, though, probably best not to keep shouting about it, eh?
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This thread is about the craft on the treadmill at 14:45 in the video.

You can't even understand that much, so how in the heck do you ever hope to understand how to measure a craft on a treadmill??

You've been defeated and now you are just a sore loser making nasty comments, because that's all you can do.
 
Looks as if he's trying to beat his record for talking shit. The Motor Boat ran to 15 pages. Start counting.
 
Ghost Appearance said:
This thread is about the craft on the treadmill at 14:45 in the video.
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Yes, I know. And when people say that it is faster it is the speed relative to the treadmill belt being measured (i.e. effective speed on a static road) compared with the belt speed relative to the frame. Deal with it.
Or don't.
You've been defeated and now you are just a sore loser making nasty comments, because that's all you can do.
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Defeated by not arguing the strawman you've set up? Sure. Okay. Whatever you say. :rolleyes:
 
Sarkus said:
And when people say that it is faster it is the speed relative to the treadmill belt being measured (i.e. effective speed on a static road) compared with the belt speed relative to the frame.
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Again, that is comparing the closing speed of 8 ft/sec (craft relative to the belt) compared to the speed of the belt measured against the frame of the treadmill, which is 2 ft/sec.

So you are saying the craft is 6 ft/sec FASTER than the belt.

That is simply NOT the case. You have measured the craft's closing speed compared to the belt, and then compared that to a different frame of the belt measured against the frame of the treadmill.
That is mixing frames and then claiming the craft is 6 ft/sec faster. It is not 6 ft/sec faster, it is 8 ft/sec faster. The difference comes from you mixing frames. A CLOSING SPEED is not the speed of the craft measured against the frame of the treadmill, which is the frame you measured the belt in.

The bottom line is the closing speed is 8 ft/sec between the belt and the craft. The craft has a speed of 10 ft/sec measured against the frame of the treadmill, so the craft is 8 ft/sec FASTER than the belt! PERIOD!
 
Ghost Appearance said:
We have already labeled the "front" to be towards the controls, and the "rear" where the belt rolls over the end.
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But that is insufficient, since a vehicle can be moving towards the rear with respect to the frame but moving towards the front with respect to the belt. Again, reference frame matters.
No! "Faster" simply means more distance per time. There is NO DIRECTION to the term "faster."
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There is, however, a reference frame. If the vehicle goes from moving with the belt to being stopped with respect to the frame, then it is going faster with respect to the belt, and slower with respect to the frame. So again, you must define the frame before you can say "it's going slower/faster."
In order for the craft to be "faster than the belt" the craft has to have a greater speed (ft/sec) than the belt, relative to the frame of the treadmill (in either direction).
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You are getting your reference frames confused. "Faster than the belt" means the craft has to have a greater speed than the belt RELATIVE TO THE BELT. If it's relative to the frame, then saying "it is faster relative to the frame" can mean a faster or slower speed relative to the belt.
So a closing speed isn't going to cut it, because that is not a speed of an object, it is a change in distance between two objects over time.
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You are the one who brought up closing speed. If you are now abandoning it - great.
Measuring the speed of the belt against the frame of the treadmill will give the belt a speed in that frame.
Measuring the speed of the craft against the frame of the treadmill will give the craft a speed in that frame.
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Those two statements are correct.
NOW they EACH have their own speed in that frame, and you can compare the two speeds and determine which is FASTER!
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As long as you always define your frame - correct.
 
billvon said:
"Faster than the belt" means the craft has to have a greater speed than the belt RELATIVE TO THE BELT.
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How can the craft be "faster than the belt" relative to the belt? That is nonsensical! What you are saying is that a closing speed of 8 ft/sec of the craft to the belt is FASTER than a closing speed of 2 ft/sec of the belt to the frame of the treadmill.

You are mixing frames of the belt frame and the treadmill frame and comparing the two different speeds. You are saying the craft is 6 ft/sec faster than the belt.

That is mixing frames and comparing them and making a statement of "6 ft/sec faster." That is nonsensical!

The speed of the belt to the treadmill frame is 2 ft/sec and the speed of the craft to the treadmill frame is 10 ft/sec, so the craft is 8 ft/sec FASTER than the belt, MEASURED IN THE SAME FRAME. Just like two football players speed is compared on a football field. Why would you measure 50 yards on a field in 7 seconds for 1 player, and then measure 50 yards of another player on a cruise ship in 6 seconds (compared to land) and then claim the cruise ship runner is faster???
Measure the two players on the same field and then make a statement as to which player is faster, and by how much.

IN THE SAME FRAME of the treadmill, the two speeds of 10 ft/sec and 2 ft/sec are compared, and that is 8 ft/sec FASTER!


billvon said:
You are the one who brought up closing speed. If you are now abandoning it - great.
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I again bring it up, because YOU are claiming to measure the speed of the craft relative to the belt. That is a CLOSING SPEED in the belt frame. Then you measure the belt compared to the treadmill frame. That is MIXING FRAMES and comparing the two mixed frames! That is WRONG!
 
Ghost Appearance said:
How can the craft be "faster than the belt" relative to the belt?
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If it is moving at all relative to the belt, it is faster than the belt. Just as if a car is moving at all, it is moving faster relative to the ground.
I again bring it up, because YOU are claiming to measure the speed of the craft relative to the belt.
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I am saying you can, yes. The fact that you don't understand this indicates you're not going to understand anything about the situation.
 
billvon said:
If it is moving at all relative to the belt, it is faster than the belt. Just as if a car is moving at all, it is moving faster relative to the ground.
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Again:

t=0 ________A-------------B___________

t=1 _________________A----------------------------------------------------------B_________________

At t=0 the distance between A and B is 2 Feet.
At t=1 the distance between A and B is 10 Feet.

So in 1 second the distance between A and B increased 8 Feet, so the CLOSING SPEED between A and B is 8 ft/sec.

Compared to the treadmill frame, A traveled 2 Feet in 1 second.
Compared to the treadmill frame B traveled 10 Feet in 1 second.

YOU are claiming B is 6 ft/sec faster than A, because the CLOSING SPEED is 8 ft/sec, and the speed of A compared to the treadmill frame is 2 ft/sec. 8 ft/sec is 6 ft/sec faster than 2 ft/sec.

When in ACTUALITY you are MIXING FRAMES. You are comparing a closing speed to the speed of A compared to the TREADMILL frame.

B traveled 10 feet in 1 second in the treadmill frame, and A traveled 2 feet in 1 second in the treadmill frame. So B traveled 8 more feet than A in THE SAME FRAME! B is 8 ft/sec FASTER IN THE SAME FRAME.
It proves it because the CLOSING SPEED is 8 ft/sec, not 6 ft/sec!

When will you get that you are mixing frames and comparing them?
 
Ghost Appearance said:
YOU are claiming B is 6 ft/sec faster than A, because the CLOSING SPEED is 8 ft/sec, and the speed of A compared to the treadmill frame is 2 ft/sec. 8 ft/sec is 6 ft/sec faster than 2 ft/sec.
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No, I am not. You are making shit up again. Shame on you for being so dishonest.
 
billvon said:
If it is moving at all relative to the belt, it is faster than the belt..
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So look at the A and B example above. Suppose B is the belt and A is the craft. B is moving in a direction towards the rear of the treadmill at a speed of 10 ft/sec in the treadmill frame. A is moving in the direction towards the rear of the treadmill at a speed of 2 ft/sec in the treadmill frame. So in the treadmill frame B (the belt) is moving FASTER than A (the craft). B is moving 10 ft/sec and A is moving 2 ft/sec, so B is 8 ft/sec FASTER than A in the treadmill frame.

...and as always, there is a CLOSING SPEED of 8 ft/sec between A and B.

So A (the craft) is moving relative to the belt, and it is SLOWER than the belt!

So your statement is BS!

If the craft were to maintain a speed of 0 ft/sec in the treadmill frame (not move compared to the frame of the treadmill) then the belt would still be moving in the treadmill frame at 10 ft/sec, the craft would be 0 ft/sec, and the CLOSING SPEED would be 10 ft/sec. The belt would be moving 10 ft/sec FASTER than the craft, in the treadmill frame. The closing speed PROVES IT!

In order for the craft to move FASTER than the belt in a direction towards the controls, the craft would have to move towards the controls in the treadmill frame at a greater speed than 10 ft/sec. If it was moving towards the controls at a speed of 11 ft/sec in the treadmill frame, the CLOSING SPEED would be 21 ft/sec, and the craft would be moving 1 ft/sec FASTER than the belt. FACT!

It also could move faster than the belt by traveling towards the rear of the treadmill at a speed of 11 ft/sec in the treadmill frame, at which point the CLOSING SPEED would be 1 ft/sec, and it would be moving 1 ft/sec FASTER than the belt.
 
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