Evolution v Intelligent Design; Should we really teach evolution?

N

Norsefire

Salam Shalom Salom
Registered Senior Member
Firstly, before the discussion, which I hope is intellectual and constructive, begins, I would like you to check out the following videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKFanG5s01M
The Scientific Method

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl1MClbdCj0
Darwin vs Intelligent Design

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The first is not necessary, but in order to really understand what I'm saying here, you have to watch the second.

Both are entertaining and informative, which is a huge plus, of course. My argument, or rather, the structure of the entire argument that I am looking for is to be built off of those videos, so please watch and enjoy.
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Now, back to evolution and intelligent design. Both have no concrete evidence, but both are logical enough ideas. I, being an agnostic, consider both open to serious possibility at the moment, until further conclusive proof is found.

My main point is addressed to atheists, however, because they, for some reason unknown to me, treat intelligent design as the same thing as creationism (see my "religion and concept" thread); for instance, if you suggest intelligent design, they say "sure it's possible, about as possible as us being [insert ridiculous thing here]". But seriously, intelligent design is a serious and logical idea about how we came to be: that we were created. What is so amazing ridiculous about that that you need to go off comparing it to us being the hair of a blue unicorn in zawaza?

However, also, evolution isn't fact. It's theory. It hasn't been observed and doesn't have serious evidence.

Do we really want to teach evolution as undeniable fact, when it remains a theory (and, although it has a good number of circumstancial evidence, it lacks any serious objective conclusive evidence)?

In my opinion, both intelligent design and evolution should be taught, but not as facts, but as ideas.

*Attention*
Keep in mind, this is about intelligent design and evolution, NOT creationism and evolution.
 
Scientists have witnessed Speciation(apparently not a word) in labs. I'll go fetch the link.
 
Betrayer0fHope said:
Scientists have witnessed Speciation(apparently not a word) in labs. I'll go fetch the link.
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As the video stated, merely natural selection and developing certain traits isn't proof that an organism can transform into an entirely other organism. Furthermore, the idea of intelligent design is still a viable one and, as explained in the video, remains a real possibility.
 
Norsefire said:
However, also, evolution isn't fact. It's theory. It hasn't been observed and doesn't have serious evidence.
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I skimmed and saw these words. No offence is intended Norsefire but when you say things like that you are demonstrating that you know very little about the subject matter.
 
We're not understanding each other, right now I'm now sure whose fault that is. This isn't just developing certain traits, this is speciation, an entirely other organism.
 
You can tell when an argument is weak when they use semantics.
"Doctrine"? Seriously? This guy probably doesn't understand what a theory means, either.

And we have seen animals change from one type to another- Darwin himself bred pigeons into ludicrous proportions. He had some he called "rollers" because he could roll them. We've turned corn from little itty bitty things to great big things.

So- if we've made chihuahua's and mastiffs from the same basal dog, and we've seen selection occur in the wild, doesn't that lead to FAR more evidence than "something intelligent did it"?
 
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KennyJC said:
Well you are half right. This is a big improvement on your part.
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How am I half right?

shaman_ said:
I skimmed and saw these words. No offence is intended Norsefire but when you say things like that you are demonstrating that you know very little about the subject matter.
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I do know evolution is a theory. If it was a fact, it'd have proof, which it doesn't.

Betrayer0fHope said:
We're not understanding each other, right now I'm now sure whose fault that is. This isn't just developing certain traits, this is speciation, an entirely other organism.
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Depending on how you define species. How about complexity? Can you "speciate" to become as complex as a Human being?
 
shaman_ said:
I skimmed and saw these words. No offence is intended Norsefire but when you say things like that you are demonstrating that you know very little about the subject matter.
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Agreed.

Fossil records are there, and it seems illogical for an Intelligent designer to leave fossils laying around for us to find. Also, in order for something to be scientifically regarded as a theory it must encompass all available evidence into one theory which can be disproved. The only reason it isn't regarded as fact is because it CAN be disproved, and it will never be fact because it can always be disproved no matter the evidence provided for it.
 
Norsefire said:
How am I half right?
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No concrete evidence of an intelligent designer... in fact barely enough to even begin a hypothesis. And so even though you do have a hypothesis of an intelligent creator, that's it... you can't go any further than that, which is why it can never be science.

Evolution isn't a philosophy. It is backed up by large amounts of evidence in many different scientific fields.
 
Betrayer0fHope said:
Fossil records are there, and it seems illogical for an Intelligent designer to leave fossils laying around for us to find. Also, in order for something to be scientifically regarded as a theory it must encompass all available evidence into one theory which can be disproved. The only reason it isn't regarded as fact is because it CAN be disproved, and it will never be fact because it can always be disproved no matter the evidence provided for it.
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Fossil records are only proof of the existence of organisms, not their evolution.
 
KennyJC said:
No concrete evidence of an intelligent designer... in fact barely enough to even begin a hypothesis. And so even though you do have a hypothesis of an intelligent creator, that's it... you can't go any further than that, which is why it can never be science.
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Nor did I state that it was indeed science; I am only trying to show that it remains a viable and reasonable enough idea and a real possibility.

Evolution isn't a philosophy. It is backed up by large amounts of evidence in many different scientific fields.
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What evidence is that? If you believe I'm uninformed, please, go ahead and inform me.
 
Norsefire said:
I do know evolution is a theory. If it was a fact, it'd have proof, which it doesn't.



Depending on how you define species. How about complexity? Can you "speciate" to become as complex as a Human being?
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What I just posted addresses the first part, for the second part, ever heard of a dictionary? Species are defined as groups of animals(sorry, I don't know how else to say it)that can't breed with each other. Many people think this is a bad definition, and it is because we have ligers, but it'll do for this case.
 
This thread is filling up way to fast. And I will also look up some logical evidence for evolution.
 
Betrayer0fHope said:
What I just posted addresses the first part, for the second part, ever heard of a dictionary? Species are defined as groups of animals(sorry, I don't know how else to say it)that can't breed with each other. Many people think this is a bad definition, and it is because we have ligers, but it'll do for this case.
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However it has to do more with the question of complexity. Humans are very complex.

Now, intelligent design doesn't have to be by "God"; it's very possible that "extra terrestrial" intelligence could've either sparked or helped the development of humanity. Do you find that idea absurd?
 
Norsefire said:
I do know evolution is a theory. If it was a fact, it'd have proof, which it doesn't.
Click to expand...

All science is theory. You can't actually prove anything in science, only falsify.

Depending on how you define species. How about complexity? Can you "speciate" to become as complex as a Human being?
Click to expand...

Betrayer0fHope said:
What I just posted addresses the first part, for the second part, ever heard of a dictionary? Species are defined as groups of animals(sorry, I don't know how else to say it)that can't breed with each other. Many people think this is a bad definition, and it is because we have ligers, but it'll do for this case.
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Species are poorly defined. It's not necessarily groups that cannot breed, it's groups that do not breed. So you can cross a lot of stuff, but it doesn't happen in the wild due to barriers, whether biological, social, or geographical.
 
Norsefire said:
However it has to do more with the question of complexity. Humans are very complex.

Now, intelligent design doesn't have to be by "God"; it's very possible that "extra terrestrial" intelligence could've either sparked or helped the development of humanity. Do you find that idea absurd?
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You're asking me if its absurd that aliens might have come down from their spaceships before history and altered our DNA and whatnot to make us very complex? Am I understanding you correct?
 
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