Evidence that God is real

[sideshowbob]

I have stopped looking because I believe I have found the truth. It was not the answer I wanted, it was the answer I found based on all data. Big difference.

No. No difference. You were satisfied with "The Answer". That's what's unacceptable. Throughout history, people have been "blown away" by ideas like flat earth or creationism that turned out to be false. You shouldn't be arrogant and try to fool yourself into thinking that you've found "The Truth".

 

[BlueSky]

No. No difference. You were satisfied with "The Answer". That's what's unacceptable. Throughout history, people have been "blown away" by ideas like flat earth or creationism that turned out to be false. You shouldn't be arrogant and try to fool yourself into thinking that you've found "The Truth".

Wow, bob, that a pretty arrogant answer I must admit. According to who, you? oooook.

You have settled into your paradigm based on what you know and see, is your view unacceptable?

Why should I accept your view? You think you have the truth ( that Truth cannot be found ) which is a truth claim in and of itself, therefore refusing your own premise.

Wow

 

[sideshowbob]

You have settled into your paradigm based on what you know and see....

No I haven't. I'm still looking. You should never stop looking.

For example, if somebody came up with evidence that God is real, as per the topic, I would be prepared for a paradigm shift. On the other hand, you don't seem to be prepared to accept anything but "The Truth" that you have already determined.

Why should I accept your view?

I couldn't care less if you accept my view.

You think you have the truth....

No I don't. That's why I keep looking.

 

[BlueSky]

No I haven't. I'm still looking. You should never stop looking.

Based on what I have read, experienced, seen, I am convinced there is a God who created the universe, who will speak to me, who has changed my life and a God whom I can know. Why am I not allowed ( in your mind ) to reach this conclusion? You don’t know what I know, so how can you say I am not allowed to have this perspective ? Just because you don’t agree with my conclusions does not negate my conclusions. They are mine.

For example, if somebody came up with evidence that God is real, as per the topic, I would be prepared for a paradigm shift. On the other hand, you don't seem to be prepared to accept anything but "The Truth" that you have already determined.

Well, I am trying to show you why I believe. I did not have a predetermined end game, I started as a definite unbeliever, then looked at all the “evidence” and it convinced me that he is there. Simple.

I couldn't care less if you accept my view.

You missed the point.

No I don't. That's why I keep looking.

Good, keep looking. Perhaps on day you find peace regarding this. I have.

Ciao!

 

[Capracus]

Not sure where you get this from, God is not the creation. He created the creation by unknown processes. Where the material came from is also unknown. He maintains the creation also by unknown means.

As you mention above, God’s characteristics are essentially unknown, so why pretend to know some of those characteristics with various statements of knowledge? For that matter, why pretend to know God at all. Since we objectively witness the constant recycling of reality from one creation to another, why would it not be reasonable to conclude that an omnipresent god, if one exists, could be the essence of that process?

 

[BlueSky]

As you mention above, God’s characteristics are essentially unknown, so why pretend to know some of those characteristics with various statements of knowledge? For that matter, why pretend to know God at all. Since we objectively witness the constant recycling of reality from one creation to another, why would it not be reasonable to conclude that an omnipresent god, if one exists, could be the essence of that process?

Well, actually, we can see his characteristics. The bible lists them in great detail and in very repetitive ways. It shows us how he dealt with the ancients and in specific, how he dealt with the group of people ( the Hebrews) he chose to teach about himself so they could teach the world.

We are not blind on these issues. Agreed tho, there is much we don’t know, but there is much we do.

 

[sideshowbob]

Based on what I have read, experienced, seen, I am convinced there is a God who created the universe, who will speak to me, who has changed my life and a God whom I can know. Why am I not allowed ( in your mind ) to reach this conclusion?

In my mind, a thinking person is allowed a tentative conclusion. A thinking person is not allowed to stop thinking or to stop re-evaluating his conclusions.

You don’t know what I know, so how can you say I am not allowed to have this perspective ?

By the same token, you don't know what I know, so how can you say your perspective is complete?

You don’t know what I know, so how can you say I am not allowed to have this perspective ?

Your conclusions are not "negated" per se. They are down-graded due to the fact that you have stopped looking. You're stuck at being able to count to ten and you don't care to learn anything more about counting or arithmetic or algebra or calculus.

I did not have a predetermined end game, I started as a definite unbeliever, then looked at all the “evidence” and it convinced me that he is there.

I, on the other hand, did start as a believer. The problem I had was that the belief didn't hold up under scrutiny. The more I looked at it, the less convincing it was. And that holds true today when talking to people like you.

You missed the point.

Then throw it again.

Perhaps on day you find peace regarding this. I have.

I'm not sure that "finding peace" is a worthy goal. In fact, I'm not sure that any concrete goal is a worthy goal.

“Life is a journey, not a destination.”
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You never know where you're going till you get there."
-- Sammy Cahn​

 

[Capracus]

Well, actually, we can see his characteristics. The bible lists them in great detail and in very repetitive ways. It shows us how he dealt with the ancients and in specific, how he dealt with the group of people ( the Hebrews) he chose to teach about himself so they could teach the world.

We are not blind on these issues. Agreed tho, there is much we don’t know, but there is much we do.

The Bible is demonstrably no more an authority on the characteristics of God than you or me. If I assume my speculations regarding the nature of God to be divinely revealed, then why not assume my collection of such, or “My Bible,” to be the word of God?

 

[Write4U]

Since woman is made in God's image, she too can create wondrous things from herself.

Every living organism can create wondrous things from itself. By the definition of being made in God's image, God must have many faces.

Single celled organisms and bacteria can duplicate themselves and respond to quorum sensing. The two known factors which can be reliably applied as viable method of continuing creative expression.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I, on the other hand, did start as a believer.

So you believed in God

The problem I had was that the belief didn't hold up under scrutiny.

So to be clear, your belief was in God. Right?
How did you know you believed in God?

The more I looked at it, the less convincing it was.

The more you looked at what. God?
Why did you convince yourself you believed in God?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

In my mind, a thinking person is allowed a tentative conclusion. A thinking person is not allowed to stop thinking or to stop re-evaluating his conclusions.

Are you sure there is no God?

Jan.

 

[billvon]

Well, actually, we can see his characteristics. The bible lists them in great detail and in very repetitive ways.

Although to be fair the Old Testament god is VERY different from the New Testament god.

 

[sideshowbob]

How did you know you believed in God?

I didn't "know". I assumed.

The more you looked at what. God?

The more I looked at the belief, the more I saw it was unfounded - like if you believe a conspiracy theory and then when you look at the facts you see there's nothing to it.

Why did you convince yourself you believed in God

I didn't need convincing any more than a child needs to be convinced that he believes in Santa Claus.

 

[sideshowbob]

Are you sure there is no God?

Jan.

No. I just have no reason to think God is real.

 

[Jan Ardena]

No. I just have no reason to think God is real.

Why not?

Jan

 

[sideshowbob]

I just have no reason to think God is real.

Why not?

Jan

Because people like you are unable to give any reason.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I didn't "know". I assumed.

So you didn’t believe in God. You just convinced yourself you did. So why lie and say you were once a believer.

The more I looked at the belief, the more I saw it was unfounded -

We now know you were pretending to believe, so your unfoundedness was self- inflicted, and as such there was no belief.

like if you believe a conspiracy theory and then when you look at the facts you see there's nothing to it.

I understand.

I didn't need convincing any more than a child needs to be convinced that he believes in Santa Claus.

So how does a child believes in Santa, without some idea of who Santa is. A child does see Santa, and Santa does give presents (at the mall).

What did you see that made you believe in God, the way a child believes in Santa?

Jan.

 

[Write4U]

The Bible is demonstrably no more an authority on the characteristics of God than you or me. If I assume my speculations regarding the nature of God to be divinely revealed, then why not assume my collection of such, or “My Bible,” to be the word of God?

At least that is an honest statement, albeit utterly wrong. Sorry.

Suppose we set aside the thinking human race for a moment. Would you say that a single celled organism is an expression of God? If so why did God create a paramecium? In what divine plan does such a creature fit?

Was the paramecium a creation of God? Why? If all these questions remain unanswered, how can anyone ever make a case that a God was necessary for the creation of the universe and living organisms.

The current mainstream science does in fact explain all that. But science suggests that spontaneous emergence of physics is an entirely possible and acceptable proposition. Which has been confirmed by experiment.

Given the least chance, nature will form a natural chronology of emergent patterns, which can be seen and predicted to become expressed in reality

Miller-Urey proved spontaneous chemical reaction under very simple mundane conditions. Nothing miraculous about it. They "created" bio-chemicals from a little water, air, and electric sparks. Presto, thousands of spontaneous chemical interactions and formation of bio-molecules formed where none were before.
Science has been able to purposely "create" the Higgs boson!

I have yet to see a human perform a miracle, even as "they have become like us (really smart) and therefore we shall confound their language". Well, yeah, you cannot perform miracles by waving your hand and mumbling some secret incantation.

OTOH, theism is relegated to pure speculation about some kind of motivated mysterious (supernatural) force, who incorrectly created the univers and humans for His pleasure, but completely ignores every other natural phenomena. And where scripture attemps to explain anything in historical or scientific terms which can be tested, scripture always has it wrong.

The problem with Theism is that it is incompatible with our accumulated knowledge of physics and mathematics.
It is not a problem of Science not knowing either. Science does know almost everything all the way down to Planck scale. A few gaps, but there are some viable hypotheses out there.

Does it not mean anything when 99% of all scientists are in agreement on some very fundamental facts about how "potential" becomes expressed in reality?

Remember when all "agree" on what they "observe" we call that reality.
Scientists don't kill each other over ''quantum mechanics" or "relativity".

It is Theism which has chosen to remain willfully ignorant, stuck in a false abstract fantasy.

And from this a theist can draw comfort that he/she has the found the "secret of life"? Theists canot even agree on a single God. Religious scripture is truly "confounded".

Religions don't even agree on a "God" figure. They kill each other over who is right.

 

[sideshowbob]

So you didn’t believe in God.

I believed in God as much as you do.

So how does a child believes in Santa, without some idea of who Santa is. A child does see Santa, and Santa does give presents (at the mall).

You must be very young. Children believed in Santa Claus long before there were malls. They believed in the stories they were told and the descriptions they were given, the same way you believe in God.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I believed in God as much as you do.

But you just admitted you didn’t ever believe in God.
I believe in God

You must be very young. Children believed in Santa Claus long before there were malls.

Children were presented images of Santa, and they would see real life images, doing what Santa is supposed to do.
To a child who believes in Santa, what is unrealistic about Santa.

They believed in the stories they were told and the descriptions they were given, the same way you believe in God.

I could have cared less about the stories. Santa wore a red suit, had big white bearded, gave out presents, and he laughed it sounded like “ho ho ho!

the same way you believe in God.

I wasn’t told any stories about God.

What stories were you told about God, that made it so you didn’t need to be convinced to believe in Him?

Jan