Everything we see is happening right now, no matter how far away it is.

You are the only person here (in this thread) who has not accepted it, so far.
Of course we will accept it. That is what we have all been telling you. Energy transfer of light takes place when the emitted light is absorbed, i.e. when the light arrives. And light takes time to travel, as we all agree.

So energy transfer by means of light takes time.

This is not rocket science.

Why should the light from Io arrive later than the light from Jupiter?

We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io when it is hidden, and afterward, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than the expected time. Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes?
 
Why should the light from Io arrive later than the light from Jupiter?

We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io when it is hidden, and afterward, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than the expected time. Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes?
This is typical crank-troll behaviour. Change the subject, to dodge dealing with the response.

I was responding on the way energy is transmitted in light radiation. The time delay in observations of distant astronomical objects is a different issue.
 
Why should the light from Io arrive later than the light from Jupiter?
It doesn't.

Well, there is a short delay because Io some distance behind Jupiter when it is eclipsed by Jupiter. But, compared to the distance from Jupiter to Earth, that "extra" distance is very small.

We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter...
We see Io until light from the Sun can no longer reflect off it towards us, because it is in the shadow cast by Jupiter. But we only see it enter Jupiter's shadow some time after it actually enters the shadow, because it takes light from Io/Jupiter some time to travel from Jupiter/Io to Earth.
... then we see Jupiter without Io when it is hidden...
Yes, when Io is in Jupiter's shadow or behind the planet.

..., and afterward, we see Io reappear near Jupiter.
We see Io when it emerges from behind the planet, or from out of Jupiter's shadow. But the time that we see it emerge is later than the time it actually emerges, because it takes some time for light from Io/Jupiter to travel to Earth.
We observe it 11 minutes later than the expected time.
The (43 minus 11) minutes is the time it takes light to travel from Jupiter/Io to Earth, when Earth is closest to Jupiter in the Earth's orbit. 43 plus 11 minutes is the time it takes light to travel from Jupiter/Io to Earth, when Earth is furthest from Jupiter in the Earth's orbit.

See the diagram in post #91, above.
Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes?
See the diagram in post #91, above. Depending on where the Earth is in its orbit, the light has to travel a smaller or greater distance than the average distance between Earth and Jupiter.
 
This is typical crank-troll behaviour. Change the subject, to dodge dealing with the response.

I was responding on the way energy is transmitted in light radiation. The time delay in observations of distant astronomical objects is a different issue.
Is there such a thing as light without energy?
 
I thought this discussion was over.
The problem is that you don't understand why Romer got the results he did. You're also apparently not reading any of the responses you receive. Instead, you just keep repeating from the same script, without learning anything new.

Romer, based on Io’s orbital period (approximately 1.769 days), observed that eclipses occurred 11 minutes earlier when Earth was closer to Jupiter and 11 minutes later when Earth was farther away.
Yes. Light takes longer than average to travel from Jupiter to Earth when the Earth is at its farthest distance away from Jupiter. And light takes a shorter than average time when Earth is at its closest distance from Jupiter.

The speed of light is not infinite. This is consistent with Romer's observations. In fact, Romer used his observations to estimate the speed of light.
Using this time difference, he calculated that light takes 22 minutes to cross the diameter of Earth’s orbit around the Sun (approximately 186 million miles). From this, he estimated the speed of light to be around 220,000 kilometers per second.
Correct.

He estimated the speed as the distance across Earth's orbit divided by the time he measured light to take as it crosses that distance.
Ole Rømer conducted an experiment and recorded it; now let’s examine what possible factors could be involved.
The factors involved have already been explained to you by several people here.
When Earth is closer to Jupiter, Io appears at a certain time, but when Earth is farther from Jupiter, Io is observed 11 minutes later.
11 minutes later than average.

The average time it takes light to travel from Jupiter to Earth is 43 minutes. See the diagram in post #91, above.
Let’s consider this only when Earth is farther from Jupiter.
In that case, then, the total light travel time from Jupiter to Earth is 43+11=54 minutes.
First Possibility:
.... We observe [Io to enter and emerge from Jupiter's shadow] 11 minutes later than the expected time.
11 minutes later than the average time. 11 minutes later than the 43 minute average time it takes for light to travel from Jupiter to Earth.
Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes?
On average, the light arrives after 43 minutes. When the Earth is further away than average, the light takes 11 minutes longer, to travel the extra distance.
This implies it arrives even later than the delay. Based on this, it seems Ole Rømer must have lied about his experiment.
That is incorrect. You simply don't understand the experiment.
Second Possibility:
Ole Rømer says he saw Io 11 minutes later.
11 minutes later than average.
Perhaps when Earth is farther away, Io remains hidden behind Jupiter for an extra 11 minutes before. If that were the case, the delay would keep increasing by 11 minutes with each orbit. However, since it is stated (approximately 1.769 days), this possibility seems unlikely.
The orbital period of Io (the time it takes for the moon to complete one orbit of Jupiter) is a regular 1.769 days. Romer used the observed orbital period to predict the time that Io should enter and emerge from Jupiter's shadow.

Your suggestion that the orbital period of Io might vary, for some unknown reason, in a regular way, is inconsistent with what we know about gravity and the orbits of planetary satellites.
Third Possibility:
We are observing Io and Jupiter in real-time before Io disappears.
That would require the speed of light to be infinite. But it isn't. Romer showed that it isn't, using the experiment you introduced into this discussion.

What is it that you don't understand?
Even after Io disappears, we see Jupiter without Io.
We can't see through Jupiter. It is not transparent. When Io is behind the planet, from our point of view, we can't see it. And when it emerges from behind the planet, the earliest we can see it on Earth is 43-11=32 minutes later. That's because the speed of light is finite and Jupiter is 32 light minutes away from Earth.
When Io reappears, we still see Jupiter.
That's because nothing is blocking our view of Jupiter. But we still see Jupiter as it was 43 minutes ago (or 32 minutes ago, as the case may be), not as it is now. That's because it takes time for light to travel from Jupiter to Earth, because the speed of light is not infinite.

Is this idea getting through to you, yet?
However, Io’s light does not arrive, yet Io continues its journey without stopping.
Io's light arrives 43 minutes later (plus or minus 11 minutes) after the light has had time to travel from Io to Earth.
But when the light does arrive, we see Io where it is at that moment. This is my claim.
You are wrong. We cannot see Io instantaneously from Earth, because the speed of light is not infinite.
This claim suggests that Ole Rømer’s observation refers to real-time events.
Yes, and the claim is wrong.

Clearly, you don't understand Romer's observations.
If there are any other possible explanations, please provide them.
Please read the thread. This isn't difficult.
 
It doesn't.

Well, there is a short delay because Io some distance behind Jupiter when it is eclipsed by Jupiter. But, compared to the distance from Jupiter to Earth, that "extra" distance is very small.
You are giving two different answers in your answer:
It doesn't come. means yes and
The part below that means no.
Yes, when Io is in Jupiter's shadow or behind the planet.
Ole Rømer is such a big fool that he can measure the speed of light by the angle of a shadow. Doesn't he even know that it's Jupiter's shadow?

We see Io when it emerges from behind the planet, or from out of Jupiter's shadow. But the time that we see it emerge is later than the time it actually emerges, because it takes some time for light from Io/Jupiter to travel to Earth.
How do you measure its speed? If it comes 11 minutes earlier, we can say that it is the speed of light plus the speed of light. How fast is this?
Since it comes late, we can say that the speed of light is minus the speed of light. If we say that, the light would not have come at all,
What is the probability that its speed will be then?
 
You are giving two different answers in your answer:
No. You just don't understand. Or, you are pretending to be stupid. One of those two.

Imagine that Earth (E), Jupiter (J) and Io (I) are arranged in a line, like this:
Code:
E                                   J    I
A person on Earth can't see Io because it is hidden behind Jupiter. If Io moves downwards on this diagram it will emerge from behind Jupiter. But it will still be further away from Earth than Jupiter. Therefore, it will take a little longer for light from Io to reach Earth, compared to the time it takes light to reach Earth from Jupiter.

Do you agree that the speed of light is not infinite, jalaldn?
Ole Rømer is such a big fool that he can measure the speed of light by the angle of a shadow. Doesn't he even know that it's Jupiter's shadow?
Romer understood that Jupiter casts a shadow and that Io can be hidden behind Jupiter, or in Jupiter's shadow. Do you understand this?
How do you measure its speed?
You measure the difference in eclipse times of the planet Io at two different times of the year: once when Earth is at the closest point in its orbit to Jupiter and again when it as the furthest point. When you do that, you find that the eclipse times differ from one another by 22 minutes. Then, you estimate the diameter of Earth's orbit, d. You know that light had to travel an additional distance d when the Earth was farthest from Jupiter, compared to when it was closest. So the speed of light must be d/(22 minutes).

This is what Romer did. Do you not understand what he did, even after I explained it to you in detail?

Did you look at the diagram in post #91? Do you understand it?

If you don't understand Romer's observations, why are you trying to use them to argue for your silly idea that we can see things at a distance instantaneously? That would require the speed of light to be infinite, and it isn't, as Romer showed.
If it comes 11 minutes earlier, we can say that it is the speed of light plus the speed of light.
Speed is the distance something travels divided by the time it takes to travel that distance.

Didn't you know this? Well, now you know.
How fast is this?
The speed of light is 299792458 metres per second.
Since it comes late, we can say that the speed of light is minus the speed of light.
You don't seem to understand what speed is. It's a good thing I'm here to help you.
 
No. You just don't understand. Or, you are pretending to be stupid. One of those two.

Imagine that Earth (E), Jupiter (J) and Io (I) are arranged in a line, like this:
Code:
E                                   J    I
A person on Earth can't see Io because it is hidden behind Jupiter. If Io moves downwards on this diagram it will emerge from behind Jupiter. But it will still be further away from Earth than Jupiter. Therefore, it will take a little longer for light from Io to reach Earth, compared to the time it takes light to reach Earth from Jupiter.

Do you agree that the speed of light is not infinite, jalaldn?

Romer understood that Jupiter casts a shadow and that Io can be hidden behind Jupiter, or in Jupiter's shadow. Do you understand this?

You measure the difference in eclipse times of the planet Io at two different times of the year: once when Earth is at the closest point in its orbit to Jupiter and again when it as the furthest point. When you do that, you find that the eclipse times differ from one another by 22 minutes. Then, you estimate the diameter of Earth's orbit, d. You know that light had to travel an additional distance d when the Earth was farthest from Jupiter, compared to when it was closest. So the speed of light must be d/(22 minutes).

This is what Romer did. Do you not understand what he did, even after I explained it to you in detail?

Did you look at the diagram in post #91? Do you understand it?

If you don't understand Romer's observations, why are you trying to use them to argue for your silly idea that we can see things at a distance instantaneously? That would require the speed of light to be infinite, and it isn't, as Romer showed.

Speed is the distance something travels divided by the time it takes to travel that distance.

Didn't you know this? Well, now you know.

The speed of light is 299792458 metres per second.

You don't seem to understand what speed is. It's a good thing I'm here to help you.
Best of luck!:rolleyes:
 
No. You just don't understand. Or, you are pretending to be stupid. One of those two.

Imagine that Earth (E), Jupiter (J) and Io (I) are arranged in a line, like this:
Code:
E                                   J    I
A person on Earth can't see Io because it is hidden behind Jupiter. If Io moves downwards on this diagram it will emerge from behind Jupiter. But it will still be further away from Earth than Jupiter. Therefore, it will take a little longer for light from Io to reach Earth, compared to the time it takes light to reach Earth from Jupiter.

Do you agree that the speed of light is not infinite, jalaldn?

Romer understood that Jupiter casts a shadow and that Io can be hidden behind Jupiter, or in Jupiter's shadow. Do you understand this?

You measure the difference in eclipse times of the planet Io at two different times of the year: once when Earth is at the closest point in its orbit to Jupiter and again when it as the furthest point. When you do that, you find that the eclipse times differ from one another by 22 minutes. Then, you estimate the diameter of Earth's orbit, d. You know that light had to travel an additional distance d when the Earth was farthest from Jupiter, compared to when it was closest. So the speed of light must be d/(22 minutes).

This is what Romer did. Do you not understand what he did, even after I explained it to you in detail?

Did you look at the diagram in post #91? Do you understand it?

If you don't understand Romer's observations, why are you trying to use them to argue for your silly idea that we can see things at a distance instantaneously? That would require the speed of light to be infinite, and it isn't, as Romer showed.

Speed is the distance something travels divided by the time it takes to travel that distance.

Didn't you know this? Well, now you know.

The speed of light is 299792458 metres per second.

You don't seem to understand what speed is. It's a good thing I'm here to help you.
Post #100

There are a total of three possible elements in this post. You belong to the first possibility and I belong to the third possibility. You should say here that the first possibility is correct, if not, you should introduce the fourth possibility.

First Possibility:
We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io when it is hidden, and afterward, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than the expected time. Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes? This implies it arrives even later than the delay. Based on this, it seems Ole Rømer must have lied about his experiment.
 
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There are a total of three possible elements in this post. You belong to the first possibility and I belong to the third possibility. You should say here that the first possibility is correct, if not, you should introduce the fourth possibility.
Your three options are all wrong.

I provided the correct option in post 95.

Please review.

This claim suggests that Ole Rømer’s observation refers to real-time events. If there are any other possible explanations, please provide them.
Done.

Please review post 95.

Simply put:
1. Jupiter/Io is, on average, 43 light minutes from the Sun (also from the average of Earth's orbit). All events (i.e. eclipses and reappearances) take, on average, 43 minutes to be seen from Earth.

2. On January 1,1650, Jupiter was 43-11=32 light minutes from Earth. All events (i.e. eclipses and reappearances) take 32 minutes to be seen from Earth.

3. On July 1,1650, Jupiter was 43+11=54 light minutes from Earth. All events (i.e. eclipses and reappearances) take 54 minutes to be seen from Earth.

1753968423670.png


Any other interpretation is due to a misunderstanding on your part.
 
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First things first:

Roemer does not know anything about a delay caused by the speed of light - yet. As far as he is concerned, if Io is eclipsed by Jupiter at 12:43PM, then on Earth he will see it happen at 12:43PM.

Now, we now know that the eclipse must have happened 43 minutes earlier, at 12PM and that it took 43 minutes to see it on Earth. But let's just look at Roemer for now.


Roemer has access to tables of Io's orbit that predict when eclipses should occur.
The tables show that Io's eclipses always last two hours (they don't in reality but lets say they do, for simplicity).


Let's say there's this entry in the predictions table:
January 1,1650 1243PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
January 1,1650 243PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).

Roemer sets up his scope and sees this:
January 1,1650 1232PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
January 1,1650 232PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).
Roemer notes that the entire eclipse event has occurred 11 minutes earlier than predicted.

Six months later Roemer breaks out his cope again.

There's this entry in the predictions table:
July 1,1650 1243PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
July 1,1650 243PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).

Roemer sets up his scope and sees this:
July 1,1650 1254PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
July 1,1650 254PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).
Roemer notes that the entire eclipse event has occurred 11 minutes later than predicted.

He correctly deduces that the +/-11 minutes discrepancy is due to the Earth's orbital diameter.
 
First things first:

Roemer does not know anything about a delay caused by the speed of light - yet. As far as he is concerned, if Io is eclipsed by Jupiter at 12:43PM, then on Earth he will see it happen at 12:43PM.

Now, we now know that the eclipse must have happened 43 minutes earlier, at 12PM and that it took 43 minutes to see it on Earth. But let's just look at Roemer for now.


Roemer has access to tables of Io's orbit that predict when eclipses should occur.
The tables show that Io's eclipses always last two hours (they don't in reality but lets say they do, for simplicity).


Let's say there's this entry in the predictions table:
January 1,1650 1243PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
January 1,1650 243PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).

Roemer sets up his scope and sees this:
January 1,1650 1232PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
January 1,1650 232PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).
Roemer notes that the entire eclipse event has occurred 11 minutes earlier than predicted.

Six months later Roemer breaks out his cope again.

There's this entry in the predictions table:
July 1,1650 1243PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
July 1,1650 243PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).

Roemer sets up his scope and sees this:
July 1,1650 1254PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
July 1,1650 254PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).
Roemer notes that the entire eclipse event has occurred 11 minutes later than predicted.

He correctly deduces that the +/-11 minutes discrepancy is due to the Earth's orbital diameter.
This post doesn't seem wrong or contradictory to me. Am I missing anything? Does this post say anything against me?
 
This post doesn't seem wrong or contradictory to me. Am I missing anything? Does this post say anything against me?
Then you agree, all three of your interpretations in post 100 and post 100 are incorrect. The correct explanation is post 111.
 
What makes you believe that the record is in your favor and against me?
post #95
Why not post #89? Or 35,55,42?
You have had it explained to you over the course of 115 posts.
Seriously if you still are asking questions then you don't get it and you will never get it.
 
What makes you believe that the record is in your favor and against me?
post #95
Because you are confused; I am not.
Because you've offered three interpretations, all of which are wrong.
Because I have given you the correct explanation.

I would point out, while Roemer may have started this experiment, it did not end with him. We have had almost 400 hundred years to understand how light travels and how eclipses elsewhere in the solar system work.

We're not guessing; it's fact. And it's consistent with what Roemer observed.

Review post 111, above.


You have a choice. You can understand how light travels, how eclipses work and how Roemer's observations substantiate that - or you can draw erroneous conclusions, based on a lack of understanding and misinterpretation, which will likely result in this thread eventually being closed.

A good scientist, when confronted with facts that contradict his theory, abandons his theory in favor of the facts.
 
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Because you are confused; I am not.
Because you've offered three interpretations, all of which are wrong.
Because I have given you the correct explanation.

I would point out, while Roemer may have started this experiment, it did not end with him. We have had almost 400 hundred years to understand how light travels and how eclipses elsewhere in the solar system work.

We're not guessing; it's fact. And it's consistent with what Roemer observed.

Review post 111, above.


You have a choice. You can understand how light travels, how eclipses work and how Roemer's observations substantiate that - or you can draw erroneous conclusions, based on a lack of understanding and misinterpretation, which will likely result in this thread eventually being closed.

A good scientist, when confronted with facts that contradict his theory, abandons his theory in favor of the facts.
Your data says this is correct. How does this become a fourth possibility?


We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io while it is hidden, and then, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than expected. Since the light from Jupiter is already late, why should it be delayed by an additional 11 minutes? This means that it arrives even later than the delay. Based on this, Ole Romer must have lied about his experiment.
 
I'm not going to discuss this topic in this space for 30 days. Let's see if anyone has anything to say from a different perspective.

Don't want to close this.
 
Your data says this is correct. How does this become a fourth possibility?
Because the correct way doesn't involve a weird idea that a distinguished scientist lied.

We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io while it is hidden, and then, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than expected. Since the light from Jupiter is already late, why should it be delayed by an additional 11 minutes?
Jupiter is 43 light minutes away from the Sun.
On average, over Earth's whole orbit, Jupiter is 43 light minutes from Earth. This is what the tables Roemer used told him.

But when Earth is on the opposite side of the Sun, Jupiter is 54 light minutes away - 11 light minutes farther.
And when Earth is on the near side of the Sun, Jupiter is 32 light minutes away - 11 light minutes closer.

1753978224255.png

See post 111. Review it until it makes sense.
 
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