Everything we see is happening right now, no matter how far away it is.

Ole Rømer conducted an experiment and recorded it; now let’s examine what possible factors could be involved.
We were on a train if thought that was helping you understand you . Are you giving up on that?


When Earth is closer to Jupiter, Io appears at a certain time, but when Earth is farther from Jupiter, Io is observed 11 minutes later.

Let’s consider this only when Earth is farther from Jupiter.

This claim suggests that Ole Rømer’s observation refers to real-time events. If there are any other possible explanations, please provide them.
There are many accounts and explanations of Romer's observations on the internet. Some use accurate numbers, some use no numbers at all.

Can you reference an article for us that we can all refer to, with numbers we can agree on?
 
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Key Insight:
We only see Jupiter’s moon after its light reaches us—not its position when the light was emitted.
How would that work with a brief flash of light in the distance, like lightning for example?

Lighting strikes so quickly that, if the observer is far enough away, the strike will have gone by the time the light from it reaches the observer. If the "information" that light brings is from the moment it arrives at the observer rather than the moment it leaves the source, how would we ever see distant lightning (or any other rapid change in the distance) at all?
 
We were on a train if thought that was helping you understand you . Are you giving up on that?



There are many accounts and explanations of Romer's observations on the internet. Some use accurate numbers, some use no numbers at all.

Can you reference an article for us that we can all refer to, with numbers we can agree on?
When I learned that light and electricity are real-time energy exchanges, I decided how to confirm that. I was surprised to see that another study had been done on the same setup. This is enough to confirm that light is real-time. No need for numbers at this point.
 
When I learned that light and electricity are real-time energy exchanges,
You learned wrong.

I decided how to confirm that. I was surprised to see that another study had been done on the same setup. This is enough to confirm that light is real-time.
It is not.

No need for numbers at this point.
Numbers are all there is. You offer 43 minutes and 11 minutes and other numbers but I think you are confused about what those numbers are telling us about the speed of light. We need to ensure were all talking about the same scenario.

You brought this to a discussion forum, presumably to discuss it. If we can't discuss a common scenario, then there is little discussion to be had, beyond "You've misunderstood something somewhere, but we can't tell you where".
 
You learned wrong.


It is not.


Numbers are all there is. You offer 43 minutes and 11 minutes and other numbers but I think you are confused about what those numbers are telling us about the speed of light. We need to ensure were all talking about the same scenario.

You brought this to a discussion forum, presumably to discuss it. If we can't discuss a common scenario, then there is little discussion to be had, beyond "You've misunderstood something somewhere, but we can't tell you where".

1. Observing Io’s Eclipses

Rømer used Jupiter as a cosmic clock because its moon Io orbited predictably every 42.5 hours (1.77 days). He recorded the times when Io:

  • Disappeared (entered Jupiter’s shadow, called an immersion).
  • Reappeared (emerged from the shadow, called an emersion).

Expected vs. Observed Eclipse Times

  • If light traveled instantaneously, Io’s eclipses should occur at perfectly regular intervals.
  • But Rømer noticed delays and advancements in Io’s eclipses depending on Earth’s position relative to Jupiter.

2. Key Measurements

(a) Earth Moving Away from Jupiter (Delays)

  • When Earth was in its orbit moving away from Jupiter, each successive Io eclipse appeared later than predicted.
  • Over several months, the cumulative delay reached up to ~22 minutes (Rømer initially estimated ~10 minutes, later refined).

(b) Earth Moving Toward Jupiter (Advancements)

  • When Earth was approaching Jupiter, Io’s eclipses occurred earlier than expected.
  • The maximum advancement also matched the ~22-minute discrepancy.

3. Rømer’s Calculation (1676)

Rømer reasoned that the 22-minute difference was due to the extra time light took to cross Earth’s changing distance from Jupiter.

Step-by-Step Estimation:

  1. Diameter of Earth’s Orbit:
    • Rømer used Cassini’s estimate of the astronomical unit (AU)—the Earth-Sun distance (~140 million km, slightly off from the modern 150 million km).
    • Thus, the total orbital diameter (2 × AU) was ~280 million km.
  2. Time Delay Corresponding to Orbital Diameter:
    • The maximum delay (when Earth was on the opposite side of the Sun from Jupiter) was ~22 minutes (~1320 seconds).
    • This meant light took 1320 extra seconds to cross the extra 280 million km.
  3. Calculating Speed of Light:
    • Speed = Distance / Time
    • v=280,000,000 km1320 s≈212,000 km/sv=1320s280,000,000km≈212,000km/s
    • Rømer initially presented ~220,000 km/s (accounting for uncertainties).

Why Was His Value Lower Than Modern Measurements?

  • The main error came from underestimating the AU (Cassini’s value was ~7% too small).
  • The exact delay was closer to 16.6 minutes (1000 seconds), not 22 minutes, but Rømer’s reasoning was fundamentally correct.

4. Data from Rømer’s 1676 Paper

Rømer presented his findings to the French Academy of Sciences in September 1676, predicting:

  • The emersion of Io on November 9, 1676, would be 10 minutes late due to Earth’s motion.
  • The prediction was confirmed, strengthening his argument.

5. Later Refinements

  • Christiaan Huygens recalculated Rømer’s data using a better AU estimate, obtaining ~230,000 km/s.
  • James Bradley (1728) later used stellar aberration to measure light speed more accurately (~301,000 km/s).
  • Modern value: 299,792 km/s.

Conclusion

Rømer’s measurements were based on:

  1. Timing discrepancies (~22 minutes) in Io’s eclipses.
  2. The assumption that light crossed Earth’s orbital diameter (280 million km) in that time.
  3. A resulting estimate of ~220,000 km/s—remarkably close given 17th-century instruments.
His work was the first empirical proof that light had a finite speed, revolutionizing physics and astronomy.
 
I'm going to go ahead with this one:
https://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/cu...osmic-horizons-book/ole-roemer-speed-of-light


The orbital period of Io is now known to be 1.769 Earth days. The satellite is eclipsed by Jupiter once every orbit, as seen from the Earth. By timing these eclipses over many years, Roemer noticed something peculiar. The time interval between successive eclipses became steadily shorter as the Earth in its orbit moved toward Jupiter and became steadily longer as the Earth moved away from Jupiter. These differences accumulated. From his data, Roemer estimated that when the Earth was nearest to Jupiter (at E1), eclipses of Io would occur about eleven minutes earlier than predicted based on the average orbital period over many years. And 6.5 months later, when the Earth was farthest from Jupiter (at E2), the eclipses would occur about eleven minutes later than predicted.
...
Roemer estimated that light required twenty-two minutes to cross the diameter of the Earth’s orbit. The speed of light could then be found by dividing the diameter of the Earth’s orbit by the time difference.


So, Roemer had data that predicted Io's eclipses throughout the years. But his observations did not match the predictions. It turns out that:
- when Earth was farthest from Jupiter, the eclipse was observed to occur eleven minutes later than predicted.
- when Earth was closest to Jupiter, the eclipse was observed to occur eleven minutes earlier than predicted.

Roemer correctly deduced that the 22 minute discrepancy was due to Earth's orbital diameter. (I takes light about 17 minutes to travel 186 million miles, but he was close enough)


1753799358506.png
 
You learned wrong.


It is not.


Numbers are all there is. You offer 43 minutes and 11 minutes and other numbers but I think you are confused about what those numbers are telling us about the speed of light. We need to ensure were all talking about the same scenario.

You brought this to a discussion forum, presumably to discuss it. If we can't discuss a common scenario, then there is little discussion to be had, beyond "You've misunderstood something somewhere, but we can't tell you where".
Ole Rømer's most significant measurement was his estimation of the speed of light, derived from observations of the eclipses of Jupiter's moon Io. Below, I’ll detail the specific measurements he recorded and how he used them to calculate the speed of light, as well as any other relevant measurements from his work. Since his primary contribution in this context is the speed of light, I’ll focus on that, but I’ll also touch on other measurements he made where data is available, based on historical records.




1. Measurement of the Speed of Light (1676)


Context:Rømer observed the eclipses of Io, one of Jupiter’s moons, while working at the Paris Observatory. He noticed that the timing of Io’s eclipses (when it passed into Jupiter’s shadow) varied depending on Earth’s position relative to Jupiter.


Specific Measurements:


  • Orbital Period of Io: Rømer determined that Io’s orbital period around Jupiter was approximately 42.5 hours (modern value: ~42.46 hours, or 1.769 days). This was based on repeated observations of Io’s eclipses.
  • Time Discrepancies: Rømer tracked the timing of Io’s eclipses over several months in 1675–1676. He found that:
    • When Earth was closer to Jupiter (at opposition), the eclipses occurred earlier than predicted.
    • When Earth was farther from Jupiter (at conjunction), the eclipses were delayed.
    • The maximum observed delay between successive eclipses accumulated to approximately 22 minutes (1,320 seconds) when Earth moved from its closest to its farthest point from Jupiter (i.e., across the diameter of Earth’s orbit, about 2 astronomical units or AU).
  • Earth’s Orbital Diameter: At the time, the size of Earth’s orbit was estimated using the astronomical unit (AU), the average distance from Earth to the Sun. The best estimate available to Rømer, based on work by astronomers like Cassini and Kepler, was that the diameter of Earth’s orbit was approximately 186 million miles (modern value: ~186 million miles or 300 million kilometers).

Calculation:Rømer hypothesized that the 22-minute delay was due to the time it took light to travel across the diameter of Earth’s orbit. Using the formula:


Speed of light=DistanceTime \text{Speed of light} = \frac{\text{Distance}}{\text{Time}} Speed of light=TimeDistance


  • Distance: Diameter of Earth’s orbit ≈ 186 million miles (or ~300 million kilometers, though Rømer used units based on the French lieue or miles of the time).
  • Time: ~1,320 seconds (22 minutes).

Rømer calculated the speed of light as approximately 220,000 kilometers per second (or about 136,700 miles per second). This was roughly 26% lower than the modern value of 299,792 km/s, primarily due to inaccuracies in the estimated size of Earth’s orbit and the exact time delay.


Data Source:Rømer presented these findings in a brief paper to the French Academy of Sciences, published in the Journal des sçavans on December 7, 1676. His observations were based on data collected over several months, comparing predicted versus observed eclipse times. The exact dataset (e.g., specific eclipse timings) is not fully preserved, as many of Rømer’s records were lost in the 1728 Copenhagen fire, but his conclusion of a 22-minute delay is well-documented.




2. Other Astronomical Measurements


While Rømer’s speed-of-light work is the most detailed measurement recorded, he also made precise measurements in other areas of astronomy:


  • Jupiter’s Moons:
    • Rømer compiled detailed tables of the orbital periods of Jupiter’s Galilean moons (Io, Europa, Ganymede, Callisto). For example:
      • Io: ~42.5 hours (1.77 days).
      • Europa: ~85.2 hours (3.55 days).
      • Ganymede: ~171.7 hours (7.15 days).
      • Callisto: ~400.5 hours (16.69 days).
    • These measurements were derived zet from repeated observations of eclipse timings and were accurate enough to be used for navigation and longitude determination.
  • Star Positions:
    • At the Paris Observatory, Rømer used a meridian telescope to measure the angular positions of stars relative to the meridian. His measurements contributed to star catalogues, with positional accuracies on the order of arcminutes (e.g., within 1–2 arcminutes, or ~0.017–0.033 degrees), limited by the instruments of the time.
    • Specific numerical data for individual stars are not well-preserved, but his work supported the broader efforts of the observatory to map celestial coordinates.
  • Lunar and Solar Observations:
    • Rømer recorded timings of lunar eclipses and solar phenomena, such as transits and sunspot observations. These measurements helped refine ephemerides, but exact numerical values are sparse in surviving records.
    • For example, he measured the timing of lunar eclipses to within a few minutes, contributing to tables predicting celestial events.



3. Thermometry: The Rømer Scale


Rømer developed an early temperature scale, one of the first to use fixed reference points. His measurements included:


  • 0° Rømer: The freezing point of a brine solution (a mixture of water and salt), approximately -14°C in modern terms.
  • 7.5° Rømer: The freezing point of pure water (0°C).
  • 60° Rømer: The boiling point of water at standard pressure (~100°C).

These reference points were based on experimental measurements using alcohol-based thermometers, which Rømer calibrated himself. While not widely adopted, his scale influenced Daniel Fahrenheit’s later work.




4. Limitations and Missing Data


  • Lost Records: Many of Rømer’s detailed observational records, including specific eclipse timings and instrument measurements, were destroyed in the 1728 Copenhagen fire. This makes it challenging to reconstruct exact datasets beyond what was published or referenced by contemporaries like Huygens and Newton.
  • Instrument Precision: Rømer’s measurements were limited by the technology of the time. For example, his telescopes and clocks had accuracies of a few arcminutes and seconds, respectively, which introduced small errors into his calculations.
  • Astronomical Unit Uncertainty: The size of Earth’s orbit was not precisely known in Rømer’s time, leading to an underestimate of the speed of light. Modern calculations, using his 22-minute delay and the correct orbital diameter (~300 million km), yield a closer approximation to the true speed.



Summary of Key Measurements​


  • Speed of Light:
    • Observed delay in Io’s eclipses: ~22 minutes (1,320 seconds) across Earth’s orbit.
    • Estimated orbital diameter: ~186 million miles (~300 million km).
    • Calculated speed: ~220,000 km/s.
  • Io’s Orbital Period: ~42.5 hours.
  • Other Moons: Accurate periods for Europa (~85.2 hours), Ganymede (~171.7 hours), and Callisto (~400.5 hours).
  • Star Positions: Angular measurements within ~1–2 arcminutes.
  • Temperature Scale: 0° (brine freezing), 7.5° (water freezing), 60° (water boiling).

Rømer’s measurements were remarkable for their time, achieved with rudimentary instruments and limited computational tools. His work on the speed of light, in particular, relied on meticulous observation and innovative reasoning, marking a turning point in the understanding of light’s properties. If you’d like me to focus on a specific measurement or attempt to reconstruct a dataset (e.g., using modern values to simulate Rømer’s calculations), let me know!
 
Okay, what questions are you going to ask me with this information?
Sorry. A chatbot vomit is not a valid source. They lie.

I have referred to this article in post 87. Please review. In particular, notice the 11 minute discrepancy in the actual observations versus the predicted observations. Roemer correctly deduced that Earth's orbit was (approximately) 22 light-minutes in diameter.

1753803399659.png


That 11 minutes either way is independent of the overall 43 minute delay from Jupiter.

If Roemer's great grandson were to make the same experiment with Pluto and Charon, the overall delay would more like 5 hours, but the discrepancy due to Earth's orbit will still be +/-11 minutes.
1753803469648.png
 
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Sorry. A chatbot vomit is not a valid source. They lie.

I have referred to this article in post 87. Please review. In particular, notice the 11 minute discrepancy in the actual observations versus the predicted observations. Roemer correctly deduced that Earth's orbit was (approximately) 22 light-minutes in diameter.

That 11 minutes either way is independent of the overall 43 minute delay from Jupiter.

If Roemer's great grandson were to make the same experiment with Pluto and Charon, the overall delay would more like 5 hours, but the discrepancy due to Earth's orbit will still be +/-11 minutes.
Below this sentence, I mentioned that the 75 th entry is 11 minutes. Whether it's a 3-minute or 30-minute , it doesn't change the meaning or context of the entry below.

##########


Ole Rømer conducted an experiment and recorded it; now let’s examine what possible factors could be involved.

When Earth is closer to Jupiter, Io appears at a certain time, but when Earth is farther from Jupiter, Io is observed 11 minutes later.

Let’s consider this only when Earth is farther from Jupiter.

First Possibility:

We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io when it is hidden, and afterward, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than the expected time. Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes? This implies it arrives even later than the delay. Based on this, it seems Ole Rømer must have lied about his experiment.

Second Possibility:

Ole Rømer says he saw Io 11 minutes later. Perhaps when Earth is farther away, Io remains hidden behind Jupiter for an extra 11 minutes before . If that were the case, the delay would keep increasing by 11 minutes with each orbit. However, since it is stated (approximately 1.769 days), this possibility seems unlikely.

Third Possibility:

We are observing Io and Jupiter in real-time before Io disappears. Even after Io disappears, we see Jupiter without Io. When Io reappears, we still see Jupiter. However, Io’s light does not arrive, yet Io continues its journey without stopping. But when the light does arrive, we see Io where it is at that moment. This is my claim.

This claim suggests that Ole Rømer’s observation refers to real-time events. If there are any other possible explanations, please provide them.
 
Below this sentence, I mentioned that the 75 th entry is 11 minutes. Whether it's a 3-minute or 30-minute , it doesn't change the meaning or context of the entry below.

##########



We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io when it is hidden, and afterward, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than the expected time. Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes?
No. You are misunderstanding.


It both disappears and reappears 11 minutes later than predicted. The entire eclipse is delayed by 11 minutes.

Six months later, it both disappears and reappears 11 minutes earlier than predicted. The entire eclipse is ahead of prediction by 11 minutes.

The eclipse always lasts two hours. Not 2h +11m, not 2h -11m.
 
No. You are misunderstanding.


It both disappears and reappears 11 minutes later than predicted. The entire eclipse is delayed by 11 minutes.

Six months later, it both disappears and reappears 11 minutes earlier than predicted. The entire eclipse is ahead of prediction by 11 minutes.

The eclipse always lasts two hours. Not 2h +11m, not 2h -11m.
I am speaking to you with respect
No matter how many times you ask me questions, I will not feel any discomfort.
Your post tells an event but I don't know what you are trying to tell me with it.
 
Your post tells an event but I don't know what you are trying to tell me with it.

First things first:

Roemer does not know anything about a delay caused by the speed of light - yet. As far as he is concerned, if Io is eclipsed by Jupiter at 12:43PM, then on Earth he will see it happen at 12:43PM.

Now, we now know that the eclipse must have happened 43 minutes earlier, at 12PM and that it took 43 minutes to see it on Earth. But let's just look at Roemer for now.


Roemer has access to tables of Io's orbit that predict when eclipses should occur.
The tables show that Io's eclipses always last two hours (they don't in reality but lets say they do, for simplicity).


Let's say there's this entry in the predictions table:
January 1,1650 1243PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
January 1,1650 243PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).

Roemer sets up his scope and sees this:
January 1,1650 1232PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
January 1,1650 232PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).
Roemer notes that the entire eclipse event has occurred 11 minutes earlier than predicted.

Six months later Roemer breaks out his cope again.

There's this entry in the predictions table:
July 1,1650 1243PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
July 1,1650 243PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).

Roemer sets up his scope and sees this:
July 1,1650 1254PM: Jupiter eclipses Io.
July 1,1650 254PM: Io reappears from behind Jupiter (2 hours later).
Roemer notes that the entire eclipse event has occurred 11 minutes later than predicted.

He correctly deduces that the +/-11 minutes discrepancy is due to the Earth's orbital diameter.
 
No matter how many times you ask me questions, I will not feel any discomfort.
Is that because you never feel like you need to answer any of the questions put to you?

Do you now agree that the speed of light is finite? Or do you still want to claim that we can see things as they are now, instantaneously, even when they are as far away as Jupiter?

Have you ever watched television and seen a conversation between reporters that is carried out using satellite communication? Have you noticed that there is often a longer-than-usual delay between a reporter being asked a question from the person in the studio, before they start to reply? That delay happens because it takes time for the radio signal from the studio to travel to the satellite and back down to Earth, where the reporter is, due to the finite speed of light. Then, when the reporter answers, their reply is also delayed in coming back to the studio.

This means that the person in the studio can only know what the reporter said a few seconds ago. They can never know what the reporter is saying right now. Communication is not instantaneous.

Do you agree?
 
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Is that because you never feel like you need to answer any of the questions put to you?

Do you now agree that the speed of light is finite? Or do you still want to claim that we can see things as they are now, instantaneously, even when they are as far away as Jupiter?

Have you ever watched television and seen a conversation between reporters that is carried out using satellite communication? Have you noticed that there is often a longer-than-usual delay between a reporter being asked a question from the person in the studio, before they start to reply? That delay happens because it takes time for the radio signal from the studio to travel to the satellite and back down to Earth, where the reporter is, due to the finite speed of light. Then, when the reporter answers, their reply is also delayed in coming back to the studio.

This means that the person in the studio can only know what the reporter said a few seconds ago. They can never know what the reporter is saying right now. Communication is not instantaneous.

Do you agree?
Although I agree that the energy transfer of light here is not happening in real time, people here will not accept it,

If you want to check if what I'm saying is true or not, check it out here.
 
Although I agree that the energy transfer of light here is not happening in real time, people here will not accept it,

If you want to check if what I'm saying is true or not, check it out here.
Of course we will accept it. That is what we have all been telling you. Energy transfer of light takes place when the emitted light is absorbed, i.e. when the light arrives. And light takes time to travel, as we all agree.

So energy transfer by means of light takes time.

This is not rocket science.
 
You are the only person here (in this thread) who has not accepted it, so far.
Of course we will accept it. That is what we have all been telling you. Energy transfer of light takes place when the emitted light is absorbed, i.e. when the light arrives. And light takes time to travel, as we all agree.

So energy transfer by means of light takes time.

This is not rocket science.
I thought this discussion was over, okay, let's start again.

There are a total of three possible elements in this post. You belong to the first possibility and I belong to the third possibility. You should say here that the first possibility is correct, if not, you should introduce the fourth possibility.

Romer, based on Io’s orbital period (approximately 1.769 days), observed that eclipses occurred 11 minutes earlier when Earth was closer to Jupiter and 11 minutes later when Earth was farther away. Using this time difference, he calculated that light takes 22 minutes to cross the diameter of Earth’s orbit around the Sun (approximately 186 million miles). From this, he estimated the speed of light to be around 220,000 kilometers per second.

Ole Rømer conducted an experiment and recorded it; now let’s examine what possible factors could be involved.

When Earth is closer to Jupiter, Io appears at a certain time, but when Earth is farther from Jupiter, Io is observed 11 minutes later.
Let’s consider this only when Earth is farther from Jupiter.

First Possibility:
We see Io before it disappears behind Jupiter, then we see Jupiter without Io when it is hidden, and afterward, we see Io reappear near Jupiter. We observe it 11 minutes later than the expected time. Since the light from Jupiter is already arriving late, why does it need to be delayed by an additional 11 minutes? This implies it arrives even later than the delay. Based on this, it seems Ole Rømer must have lied about his experiment.

Second Possibility:
Ole Rømer says he saw Io 11 minutes later. Perhaps when Earth is farther away, Io remains hidden behind Jupiter for an extra 11 minutes before . If that were the case, the delay would keep increasing by 11 minutes with each orbit. However, since it is stated (approximately 1.769 days), this possibility seems unlikely.

Third Possibility:
We are observing Io and Jupiter in real-time before Io disappears. Even after Io disappears, we see Jupiter without Io. When Io reappears, we still see Jupiter. However, Io’s light does not arrive, yet Io continues its journey without stopping. But when the light does arrive, we see Io where it is at that moment. This is my claim.

This claim suggests that Ole Rømer’s observation refers to real-time events. If there are any other possible explanations, please provide them.
 
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