Everyday sexism

[James R]

My behaviour in public and what I have addressed here, is governed by my community and society in general...

So basically you're telling us that you were lying when you said you'd change your stance once somebody objected to your behaviour - young or old, male or female, I believe you said.

In fact, you won't ever change your behaviour just because somebody complains. Right?

 

[paddoboy]

Only she wasn't talking about what you do outside this forum, there, and you know it. She was referring, specifically, to what you did inside this forum, to her, which has quite a lot "sfa" to do with her.

You need to stop this soon, before things get a lot more serious once again.

What do you want me to stop James? Supporting my stance on this casual every day banter?
The examples I have given support that stance...you are telling me no more examples?
Or are you offended by some of the jokes, which are not directed at anyone in particular, and of course by more then one?
This can be easily stopped by people not telling me how to behave in society in general and which I have plenty of evidence supporting it.
Or do you just want me to cower away and not defend my position?
And are you also condoning the disgusting language that has been used? and please don't insult my intelligence by saying you havn't seen it, or it hasn't been reported.

 

[James R]

All questions have been answered many times.

No. Here are the ones you didn't answer, again. I'll number them for you.

1. Tell me what you think about all these women who hate male bosses and colleagues calling them "love".

2. If you were their boss, would you still insist on calling them "love", at least until one of them was brave enough to file a formal complaint against you?

3. Do you think it is conceivable that, given that 75% of women in the survey above hated the term "love" used by older males in the workplace, women who are serving you in the supermarket might similarly be offended when addressed by you as "love"?

4. Will you alter your future behaviour at all in light of this information that Bells has kindly provided to you about how so many women dislike being referred to as "love"?

5. If not, why not?

I'll wait while you answer.

 

[paddoboy]

So basically you're telling us that you were lying when you said you'd change your stance once somebody objected to your behaviour - young or old, male or female, I believe you said.

In fact, you won't ever change your behaviour just because somebody complains. Right?

If someone objected to me calling them casually Luv, or in anyway looked or acted offended, then yes, I would stop and probably avoid her in future. Is that clear enough? I have said it many times.

 

[James R]

What do you want me to stop James?

YOu can start by stopping the behaviour that Bells has asked you to stop. Here's what she wrote, again, because obviously you didn't get it the first few times:

And again, sexualised inappropriate comments. Not appropriate or appreciated.

Why do you keep doing it, even when I ask you to stop?

It is sexual harassment by any definition. I keep asking you to stop with the sexist and sexual innuendo and jokes and "banter", you keep doing it. Is this you being respectful to women? You claim you'd stop if you were given any indication that it wasn't appreciated. I am literally telling you to stop and you just refuse to and instead keep piling it on.​

She is asking you to stop directing sexualised an inappropriate comments to her.

This is an example of a woman directly asking you to alter your behaviour towards her.

You have been saying all along that if any woman ever told you your behaviour towards her was unwelcome, you would change it.

Tell me how you will now alter your behaviour towards Bells, in light of her request that you stop posting sexist and sexual innuendo and jokes and "banter" to her. Tell her how you will change.

 

[paddoboy]

No. Here are the ones you didn't answer, again. I'll number them for you.

1. Tell me what you think about all these women who hate male bosses and colleagues calling them "love".

If that is the case, then complain to higher authority.

2. If you were their boss, would you still insist on calling them "love", at least until one of them was brave enough to file a formal complaint against you?

If I was there Boss and any indication was obvious that anyone objected I would cease.

3. Do you think it is conceivable that, given that 75% of women in the survey above hated the term "love" used by older males in the workplace, women who are serving you in the supermarket might similarly be offended when addressed by you as "love"?

Nup none at all...I am pretty perceptive.

4. Will you alter your future behaviour at all in light of this information that Bells has kindly provided to you about how so many women dislike being referred to as "love"?

I don't call anyone here Love, and my behaviour outside of here is none of your business, nor Bells and will continue as long as it is found acceptable and in many cases reciprocated.

5. If not, why not?

Because it is common every day banter between common every day people, in every day situations, by both men and women, without any offence taken by either side.

OK James I've given you the courtesy of answering your questions that have already been answered.

I'll wait while you answer.

Hope the wait was worth it.

 

[paddoboy]

YOu can start by stopping the behaviour that Bells has asked you to stop. Here's what she wrote, again, because obviously you didn't get it the first few times:

And again, sexualised inappropriate comments. Not appropriate or appreciated.

Why do you keep doing it, even when I ask you to stop?

It is sexual harassment by any definition. I keep asking you to stop with the sexist and sexual innuendo and jokes and "banter", you keep doing it. Is this you being respectful to women? You claim you'd stop if you were given any indication that it wasn't appreciated. I am literally telling you to stop and you just refuse to and instead keep piling it on.​

She is asking you to stop directing sexualised an inappropriate comments to her.

This is an example of a woman directly asking you to alter your behaviour towards her.

You have been saying all along that if any woman ever told you your behaviour towards her was unwelcome, you would change it.

Tell me how you will now alter your behaviour towards Bells, in light of her request that you stop posting sexist and sexual innuendo and jokes and "banter" to her. Tell her how you will change.

Can you show me, or can Bells show me where my behaviour towards Bells has been in question?
Do you also condone her provocative and disgusting statements and accusations on my person ?

 

[James R]

The examples I have given support that stance...you are telling me no more examples?

None of the examples you have given support your position.

Clearly, you think that because sexism is rampant in the society in which you move, it's all good if you condone it and actively participate in it.

Two wrongs don't make a right, paddoboy. When will you realise that?

Or are you offended by some of the jokes, which are not directed at anyone in particular, and of course by more then one?

If I was not offended by your "joke" about women being indecisive - a sexist stereotype - then I would not have commented on it.

But surely you're kidding when you claim you still you don't know if I find your sexism offensive, after so many posts to this thread?

Just so you know, I'd also think it was offensive if your wife were to call me "love". Sure, I might put it down to her upbringing, to force of habit, to not knowing any better, to acculturation, etc. Sure, I would almost certainly not make an issue of it with her because, as I wrote earlier, I try not to be an asshole. And sure, it's at the low end of the offensiveness scale. But that wouldn't change the fact.

This can be easily stopped by people not telling me how to behave in society in general and which I have plenty of evidence supporting it.

That's your white male privilege, right there. It's the patriarchy, mate! Obviously you've never been told until now. It's past time that you were told.

Now you know. Now you have no excuse. Your behaviour is now knowingly disrespectful. The only question is: will you change anything?

Or do you just want me to cower away and not defend my position?

How can you hope to defend being a sleazy sexist pig? You can only change, or dig a deeper hole for yourself. There is really no other option, apart from simply bowing out of the conversation. At least then, if you choose, you can be a sleazy sexist pig more privately, rather than making a public spectacle of yourself and having it on the interwebs for years to come.

And are you also condoning the disgusting language that has been used? and please don't insult my intelligence by saying you havn't seen it, or it hasn't been reported.

I have seen no reports of any disgusting language in this thread from you (or anybody else, for that matter). Possibly you did file reports and other moderators dealt with them.

 

[paddoboy]

Just so you know, I'd also think it was offensive if your wife were to call me "love". Sure, I might put it down to her upbringing, to force of habit, to not knowing any better,

My wife didn't call you Love. She called a shop assistant love, and as far as upbringing goes, she would absolutely play you off a break.
In the meantime since you are putting a ban on harmless jokes, sure, I'll stop. but again my behaviour is not in question outside your little forum and will certainly, not change and I certainly hope all those I interact with outside this forum, will keep on keeping on with there wonderful casual style banter..

 

[paddoboy]

I have seen no reports of any disgusting language in this thread from you (or anybody else, for that matter). Possibly you did file reports and other moderators dealt with them.

No I filed nothing for what good it would have done, but the disgusting inferences were there, just as per your own more recent one calling me a sexist pig or such.
Hope you sleep alright with your little crusade James.

 

[James R]

My wife didn't call you Love.

That's why I wrote "... if your wife were to call me 'love'...". It's called a counterfactual. You can look it up.

She called a shop assistant love, and as far as upbringing goes, she would absolutely play you off a break.

I don't know what that means. Is that a pool reference? Are you saying you somehow know she was brought up better than I was? Is that an attempt to insult my parents?

In the meantime since you are putting a ban on harmless jokes, sure, I'll stop.

No. That lie doesn't get you off the hook. Try to be better.

...but again my behaviour is not in question outside your little forum ...

As I keep saying, you have no idea.

...and will certainly, not change and I certainly hope all those I interact with outside this forum, will keep on keeping on with there wonderful casual style banter..

It won't change even if somebody tells you they are offended?

First it was "If anybody says I'm offending them, I'll change". Now it's "If anybody says I'm offending them, I'll change, unless it's somebody on sciforums in which case I'll keep on as usual." I don't hold out great hopes for you not to apply a similar exception every time it suits you. Basically, any excuse not to alter your behaviour will do, right?

No I filed nothing for what good it would have done...

So what are you whinging about?

Hope you sleep alright with your little crusade James.

This is all your choosing, paddoboy. You can stop at any time. I reminded you of that right at the start.

 

[James R]

Alex:

Now why would that be..called insane..not to my face gets us old folk upset..I know totally irrational and not worthy of an apology.

There is a theme in your responses to me about me calling you insane. I don't recall doing that anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think you might be reading in something that isn't there (which isn't necessarily an insane thing to do, by the way).

I have..just read what I have said...it is a generalizing term and used exclusively in a hateful manner branding it as racist ( and sexist).

In my experience, the term "white male" is not used exclusively in a hateful way. For instance, I see news reports where reporters say things like "A petrol station was robbed earlier today. Two men have been arrested and are assisting the police with their inquiries. Both are white 30-year-old males." I don't see anything racist in that. You might argue, I guess, that mentioning that they were white is unnecessary, but then so is mentioning their age and that they are male. Does that make the news report ageist and sexist as well as racist?

Why seek my input..I am insane remember.

Why not just answer the question I asked you, rather than deflecting? How would you prefer that I refer to myself, if not as a "white male", if I want to describe myself accurately and concisely? If you're going to take me to task for using racist, offensive language, I hope you have a non-racist, inoffensive alternative in mind.

Why should it sound that way given my commentary is in a context of calling for the death penalty for domestic violence and rape and asking questions of our culture being guided by the church and Hollywood.. your observation is unrealistic and not genuine..how could even suggest such a thing...this thing of putting words into people's mouth when clearly they do not hold the opinion you attempt to put upon the is smiley and fraudulent.. it makes me angry..it's basically a lie..if not tell me what it is?

What I gave you was what I personally took away from your posts. In other words, I gave you my opinion. You are free, of course, to say that my opinion is unrealistic. You are free to accuse me of not being genuine too, I suppose, although that's not very nice of you. If I have misinterpreted your words, then surely we can talk until we're both on the same page? There's no need to get angry or accuse me of telling lies.

My impression - and it is only my impression, which could be wrong - is that you're upset at me (and others) because you think we're unfairly attacking poor little paddoboy for perfectly unremarkable behaviour that many people regularly engage in (e.g. addressing strangers of the opposite sex as "love"). My impression is that you regard this as bullying of paddoboy, and you think that we should be concentrating our attention on real criminals, such as perpetrators of domestic violence and the church and Hollywood, instead.

I applaud your concerns about domestic violence etc. However, I disagree with you that the existence of those other evils means that we should turn a blind eye to everyday sexism, which is the subject of this thread. What do you think about that?

(By the way, if you're advocating for the death penalty, then I oppose that, too, but that's another discussion.)

Of course I can..I was a real estate salesman ..I know it all when it comes to that sort of thing...but it is an individual thing ..

Right. So which individual matters more? The individual who means no harm when he calls the shop assistant "love", or the shop assistant herself, who would prefer not to have strange men addressing her that way? Will you defend the right of the strange man to use "love" as a form of address in that circumstance, regardless of what the woman would prefer? And if we don't know what the woman would prefer, what then? What's the best course of action? If we were to bear in mind that "it is an individual thing", as you point out, what then?

your mobs problem is you orbit in a narrow region unexposed to the wider community..thats the way it is for most all folk..they inhabit a group and the norm of the group becomes what is right..look at the inability here to accept that the term white male is racist and sexist...that just does not go down well therefore you all fight to make it not so..but it is so..it is racist and sexist and you can try for the next ten years to change it but you can not..

I'm not sure who you think my mob is, in this context, Alex. But if you say that everybody inhabits different groups, then you ought to accept that not everybody inhabits your mob, as well. In your mob, "white male" is racist and sexist. In mine, it doesn't seem to be. In my mob, calling the shop assistant "love" is sexist, patronising and possibly sleazy; in yours, maybe it isn't.

Now, personally, I don't think that all "mobs" are equal when it comes to their right to grab the high moral ground. That's because I think that certain moral standards ought to be universal. Of course, the ones I advocate are also the ones I try to apply amongst my own mob, so you might argue that it's all relative again. But if it's really all relative, then how can you complain about my criticism of paddoboy, for instance? Who's to say that he's right and I'm wrong? Maybe you're only saying that because his mob and your mob overlap or are the same or something.

The point is: if you're going to argue for moral relativism, you have to apply it consistently. If morality is all relative, then you're in no position to complain about my morality, any more than I'm in a position to complain about yours. Personally, I'm not a moral relativist.

I speak the truth...anyway I know people the various social groups..some will find Paddos approach insulting, most wont by the way...

Are you literally advocating "mob rule", then? Whatever the majority says must be right, at any given time? Surely not.

your failure to apply the two simple tests for racism and sexism means you dont get it...

That's interesting. Which two simple tests should I apply?

further you fail to appreciate your group is not representative of humans..it is hard to find any group that is really...and so your judgemental attitude besides being stupid and arrogant is very offensive to all the group you seem to think are inferior.

Like I said, I'm not a moral relativist. I can't apologise for that. While I appreciate that people are imperfect, and while I also recognise that I'm in no way morally perfect either, I don't think that either of those things means I can never be in a position to judge somebody's behaviour as immoral.

Gee I would have to think about that one..but I will take a page out of your mobs book..if they are acting badly and on the other side well of course they should be critised however if they are on your own side and acting badly of course they should never be criticised...

But you're applying precisely that standard to one of your mob - paddoboy - aren't you? What makes you better than my mob?

If you really want to take this discussion of mobs further though, I think you should start by defining what you regard as my mob and your mob. What characteristics define the members of these mobs of yours?

When it comes to sexism, for me the relevant mob is the whole human race. I can't see a justification for applying different standards to different subsets of males, say. But maybe you can. Maybe standards ought to be different in Maroubra than in Brisbane, or wherever.

Like the 11000 scientists lie..because the lie was by "our" side it was not a lie at all...

I don't know what you're talking about there.

Er I am not protecting him I am pointing out that bullying is taking place...do you see the difference? Tell me upon what I have said how do you draw the conclusion that I was protecting him....anyways Paddo can eat your lot for breakfast and not even burp.

Again, I'm not sure who my lot is, yet. Maybe you're thinking of city people in ivory towers who never go outside and mix with "real people", or something like that? People with too much book learnin' and not enough exposure to the school of hard knocks, perhaps? Is that the kind of box you're putting me in, Alex, based on what and how I write on this forum?

 

[James R]

if you are serious first appologise for calling me insane and not making that comment to my face...

Seriously, where did I call you insane? I don't think you're insane. And even if you were, its unlikely it would be your fault.

It is not your place to judge..you should think about that...set an example but don't tell others what they should do...

What I try to do is to give people information. What they choose to do - or choose not to do - with that information is up to them. I like to think of myself as a realistic optimist, which means I usually hope for the best but expect less than the best. What really annoys me, though, is people who know better but who still choose to act poorly - especially ones who have had all the relevant information presented to them in an easily digestible form.

Do not put words into my mouth as it makes me angry...

Asking you some questions is not equivalent to putting words into your mouth. Nor is telling you how your words affect me.

By real people you can read there the community at large..not only the "white males" not only the "old" people but across the board hopefully to form an appreciation that the community is diverse and to box it up like you attempt is just naive...

I think you're making unwarranted assumptions about me. When have I tried to box up the general community? Generally, I try to avoid dealing in stereotypes when I talk about and to people. Those stereotypes are undoubtedly there in general discourse, and there's often some truth behind a stereotype, too, but I'm pretty careful to always keep in mind that people are individuals and not just stereotypes.

I talk to every one..strangers, cleaners, folk who you know are frightened by a man with shoulder length hair and a beard...you should try it..

I'm not sure why you assume I don't talk to people in the same way you do. What have I done to make you think I don't get out much in the community, or whatever it is you think about me?

you don't have experience with "real people" the general public...

I don't know where you're getting this stuff from. What gave you that impression about me? I live in a community, the same as you do. In fact, probably like you, I interact with a number of different communities. I have work colleagues. I have family connections. I have my neighbours, my friends, the people in the places where I shop, etc. etc. I also have online connections to people whom I rarely, if ever, see face to face. I watch the news. I follow politics. I watch sport. I read. I listen to music. I take public transport. I do all those things, just like you. Whatever gave you the impression that I have no experience with "real people"?

My deal is when you are calling someone out look first to what you do..decrying any racist or sexist term is rather lame when you happily use a clearly racist and sexist term ..more so because you just don't get even with the definition of racism in front of you...I speak the truth that's why what I say is so very confronting.

You're calling me out for opining that the term "white male" is not necessarily racist or sexist. Forgive me, but I don't feel very confronted by my own bigotry. Part of the problem is that you have yet to explain to me what it is that makes that term so offensive to you.

Meanwhile, you'll notice that I've explained in excruciating detail what is sexist and inappropriate about calling female shop assistants "love", for instance. I didn't think that would be necessary, but apparently even now paddoboy still can't see the problem. I'm not sure about you.

My beef is the refusal of all lined up and laying in the boot that his assesment of the feelings of the people he was before, none of you were there, were not correct. Further without testimony from those he was talking to you must have testimony that they were offended..now try this on..if you don't have their testimony you simply don't know and so to proceed on any assumption one way or the other is wrong and points to the fact you are judging Paddo with no evidence other than his account which sadly does not support the proposition you are pushing..

Possibly you've got the wrong end of the stick there.

It doesn't actually matter whether the particular shop assistant that paddoboy sleazed onto to ask for his extra virgin olive oil was offended. Maybe the real person involved thought paddoboy was just a harmless old duffer, or whatever. It's not actually about that. The question we should be asking is whether, as a general rule, an older male ought to make it a habit of addressing young female shop assistants as "love" and trying to flirt with them while they are doing their jobs and are obliged to be pleasant to the customers. (The answer to that question, in case there's still some doubt, is that the older male in question ought not to act like a sexist pig, as a general rule.)

There is no problem with Paddo unless you can present evidence that those he interacted with were upset by his " banter".

No, you're wrong. There's a problem and we don't need direct evidence about him to recognise it. We can, for example, just listen to what women say about their experiences of everyday sexism, and their opinions of it, and their preferences about appropriate behaviour.

You have to believe me: everyday sexism is a problem and the world will be a better place once we dispense with it (or at least make it generally recognised as unacceptable behaviour).

 

[James R]

I am not for not addressing the issues at all...my main thing here is..don't abuse and bully people, dont think you can determine what people are thinking, dont judge people...and don't call them insane because you fail to understand the point they make.

Alex, the thing is: it's fine to make reasonable deductions about what a person is thinking, based on what they say or write and how they act. You shouldn't be scared of doing that. You shouldn't be scared of offending somebody by judging them based on their own behaviour. As I said previously, we can't see somebody's inner thoughts or intentions, but we can see the products of those. We see what they do, how they conduct themselves. We listen to what they say. We read what they write. Those are the only ways to tell what a person is thinking. Don't apologise for paying attention to people.

The common law requires " men's rea" or a guilty mind..

Only for certain crimes, murder being the classic example. Also, I might point out that, in a criminal trial, intent must always be inferred from evidence, which requires judging people on what they do, not on some inaccessible inner state they might have.

however I dont think there is any codification that is relevant to Paddos "crime" and therefore as he has no guilty intent you can not under any circumstances find him guilty..that is essentially going by the law but I guess the mob is above the law.

Nobody has accused paddoboy of a crime. He is not on trial. Nevertheless, we are doing what a jury would do - inferring intent from behaviour. One thing he certainly can't do (any more) is to plead innocence due to ignorance. What he does, from now on at least, he does knowingly.

You alledge in effect a crime so you need to show a guilty intent...

I allege immorality, not a crime. One can't be blamed for immoral acts if one does not know they are immoral. But paddoboy can't make that excuse. He's been told exactly what's wrong with his activities. He has had plenty of time to think it over.

Why is it that here Paddo is not extended the same rights that he would have as a criminal appearing before an actual judge?

You mean the right to defend oneself, for instance? He's certainly exercising that right vigorously.

Because what we have here in no more than the mob laying in the boot and indulging their propensity for hatred of the group they call the " white male"...

Ooh. I hope you're not trying to link your "white male" thing with paddoboy's sexism.

It sounds like you're saying that I am persecuting paddoboy because I hate white males and not because he's a male chauvinist. It would be odd for me as a self-identified white male to hate white males, I think, but I suppose it's a logical possibility.

Are you serious when you say you think that paddoboy is only coming in for criticism because he's a white male? Do you think that if he happened to be black I wouldn't be going so hard on him about sexism, perhaps? Or if he was a woman, maybe?

Basically, you're saying that I'm attacking him because I'm racist. And the same would go for others who are critical of him, like Bells and iceaura, for instance. Do I have that right?

What matters is the abuse and bullying that follows is uncalled for... you see what you lot go on about is this does not justify that..you agree on that dont you?

But you will have seen how I urged paddoboy not to fire up after I pointed out his original sexist "joke". How I urged him to think carefully before inviting a closer examination of his behaviours. How I have, several times during the course of our discussions, invited him to step away and let things lie.

paddoboy wants to keep this going. This isn't about us bullying him. He's loving this. Can't you see that? He's proud of himself. He is unapologetic. He is a rock standing against the tide of change. He is a hero in his own mind.

So James I think there is little I can add but to sum up..White male is both sexist and racist given its context of hate and generalizing upon a group.

I think it's mostly descriptive. I agree that it could be sexist and racist in the right context, but that applies to a lot of otherwise-innocent expressions.

I do not approve of the abuse bullying and employment of sexism to support your position..sexism..see Bells for her justification...

That appears to be a new point you're making. You'd better explain it. From the context, I think you're probably saying that whenever we point out that it's mostly men harassing women rather than the other way around, that's sexist towards men, and therefore pointing out paddoboy's sexism is actually sexist towards him because he's a man. If that's what you're saying, I'd say it's a pretty screwy argument to try to make, but I'll wait for you to actually make it.

I do not approve of folk taking my words, and those of others, and twisting them to suit their purpose and displaying blatant fraudulence.

I'd like to see clear examples of such fraudulence, if you're alleging that.

I do not like being labelled insane.

Fine. Where did it happen?

I do not like it when someone has to make a comment to another and not look me in the face and tell me that I am insane.

What are you referring to? A link would be useful.

 

[sculptor]

So
I recently said to my beloved spouse:
"One of the reasons that I always let women walk in front of me is that I enjoy watching their asses move."

She gave me "one of those looks"
and said "You didn't have to say that."

 

[Write4U]

So
I recently said to my beloved spouse:
"One of the reasons that I always let women walk in front of me is that I enjoy watching their asses move."

She gave me "one of those looks"
and said "You didn't have to say that."

You can always claim, "I'm an artist and view these things from an artist's perspective"........

 

[Bells]

What I do outside this forum is what society condones and dictates, certainly not what you dictate and has sfa to do with you...Got it?

Then why do you keep referring to what you do outside of this forum as an excuse for your behaviour and continued sexual harassment of women?

Calling you girlie? Any reference for that Bells?

Ya. I had made it abundantly clear that your behaviour was not acceptable and to stop.

You responded by calling me "girly" and then made even more inappropriate jokes.

And continue to sexually harass women?? Tell you what girly, why don't you contact the appropriate authorities and inform them of those on this forum that are condoning sexual harassment. Perhaps while you are at it, you can also start a campaign re the sexual jokes that do the rounds, that focus on gender and/or nationality...Let me equate you with a few....
1. What’s the fastest way to a man’s heart?
Through his chest with a sharp knife.
or.....
As an airplane is about to crash, a female passenger jumps up frantically and announces, "If I'm going to die, I want to die feeling like a woman." She removes all her clothing and asks, "Is there someone on this plane who is man enough to make me feel like a woman?" A man stands up, removes his shirt and says, "Here, iron this!".
Or better still, I have a Irish mate who tells the best Irish jokes around....you understand Irish jokes??
Here's one.....
A man walks into a bar and orders three beers.

The bartender brings him the three beers, and the man proceeds to alternately sip one, then the other, then the third, until they're gone.

He then orders three more and the bartender says, "Sir, I know you like them cold, so you can start with one, and I'll bring you a fresh one as soon as you're low."

The man says, "You don't understand. I have two brothers, one in Australia and one in the Ireland. We made a vow to each other that every Saturday night, we'd still drink together. So right now, my brothers have three beers, too, and we're drinking together."

The bartender thinks it's a wonderful tradition, and every week he sets up the guy's three beers. Then one week, the man comes in and orders only two. He drinks them and then orders two more. The bartender says sadly, "Knowing your tradition, I'd just like to just say that I'm sorry you've lost a brother."

The man replies, "Oh, my brothers are fine -- I just quit drinking."
Have those jokes lightened your day Bells?

So when you say that if a woman made it clear that it was unwelcomed, were you lying?

Because women on this site have made it abundantly clear that it is unwelcome, but you just can't stop making these inappropriate comments. It was like when you went on and on about your sexual prowess in another thread, and you were asked to stop repeatedly and you just could not stop. It's sexual harassment. And you still refused to stop.

Your little nicknames, it's not invited or wanted. And you are told it's not appropriate, but you keep doing it and you make sure it's more condescending by adding an emoticon with it.. Because you know, the condescending pet name was not enough..

I dare say like near everything else, it is something you have taken out of context, misinterpreted or misrepresented.

You don't think harassing women on the street is an issue.

You don't even believe that sexual harassment is a thing. Which is why you keep telling us how you are groped, etc and it's why you keep up with the flirty and inappropriate behaviour even when you are told it's not appropriate.

You claim that you would stop if a woman indicated it wasn't welcome. Women on this site have told you it isn't appropriate. So why do you ignore them and keep doing it? When I told you that your comments about your sex life was not appropriate, why did you keep making more and more comments about it to me in one of our previous discussions about this?

In short, you refuse to listen when women tell you to back the hell off. You keep foisting yourself and your sexual innuendo, nicknames, etc onto us, even after we ask you to stop. And you keep boasting about how you do this to other women, young women in vulnerable positions who are unable to tell you to go away because they think you are a pervert. And then you start using words like how you and the women you sexually harass are consenting adults, and then admit that at least some of them are.. It's not appropriate. You are clearly aware that your innuendo is sexual in nature (hence the consenting adults comment from you).

You are a serial sexual harasser. You just think you can get away with it by calling it every day banter.

 

[wegs]

I haven’t read every post in this thread, but is it safe to assume paddoboy, that your “banter” tends to occur with women at their workplaces? Regarding the bar scene - if female bartenders are joking with you and your friends, it’s because you’re likely tipping well. You’re a customer and they tolerate the interactions because if they don’t, it will affect their pay. I’d imagine if you encountered these women out of the workplace and started flirty “conversations,” they’d shut it down.

I’m chiming in here because it seems like the pattern of your “banter” forms around women at their places of work. Unfortunately, their friendliness (er...customer service) is being twisted in your mind as acceptance of your “approach.” Perhaps, that is where the disconnect is here - you tend to flirt with women whom you know won’t negatively react to your “banter,” and that has given you this idea that what you’re doing is harmless.

This could be why you posted that random joke about women being indecisive in the alien thread, that James highlighted. You have grown accustomed to viewing women a certain way, whatever that way may be, and it is very natural (for want of a better word), to blurt out jokes and comments that set women apart from men, in demeaning ways. “Ah, I’m just kidding!” has become the knee jerk response when you’re called out. So, while I believe you when you state that you don’t see yourself as sexist, your posts and conduct in the “real world” say something different.

In other words, your “banter” has become so habitual, that you can’t see it objectively, you know?

 

[iceaura]

If that is the case, then complain to higher authority.

If I had dollar for every time I've heard a stereotypical everyday American bigot tell somebody who was complaining about their offensive behavior to "write your Congressman" or "call the police" or the like, I believe I could buy a car for cash.

And those would be the comparatively rare situations where the harassed or abused was angry or confident enough to overcome the typically intimidating circumstances.

What do you want me to stop James? Supporting my stance on this casual every day banter?
The examples I have given support that stance...you are telling me no more examples?

Aside from James, and Bells, and so forth, I'm just picking out one of the more obvious examples of my earlier observation - which you have yet to acknowledge - that your posts here match the rhetoric of the stereotypical American white male " 'ist ".

You understand, by comprehending what you read, that such observations are of your posting, right?

 

[paddoboy]

I don't know what that means. Is that a pool reference? Are you saying you somehow know she was brought up better than I was? Is that an attempt to insult my parents?

No more then your questionable attempt to judge my wife's upbringing. And with the reference to pool, get out into the big wide world James.

No. That lie doesn't get you off the hook. Try to be better.

I'm not on the hook James.

It won't change even if somebody tells you they are offended?

First it was "If anybody says I'm offending them, I'll change". Now it's "If anybody says I'm offending them, I'll change, unless it's somebody on sciforums in which case I'll keep on as usual." I don't hold out great hopes for you not to apply a similar exception every time it suits you. Basically, any excuse not to alter your behaviour will do, right?

You need to realise one thing James. This forum isn't the be all and end all on the question of morality, and while I am at it, neither are you.

This is all your choosing, paddoboy. You can stop at any time. I reminded you of that right at the start.

Yes, you have threatened me now a number of times.
I'm not going to rehash everything, suffice to say, I'll give you your hollow victory and let you go celebrate.
Just understand that my behaviour is not in question in reality. It's your's and another's behaviour, and I'm confident that the "silent majority" on this forum will see that.

My stance and attitude outside this forum though will remain as is, despite that probably upsetting you and your hollow victory.
It will remain as is, because it is not sexist, is not misogynist, and is not belittling.
The common everyday banter that I partake in [because I'm a real friendly bloke James] will continue, with men and women, young and old, on both sides of the equation, when appropriate and when necessitated by chance or need.
Again, other then to answer a Lady here, this will be my last post in your well devised set up and plan.
You sleep well James, because I will, knowing that I have conducted myself with regards to this thread, with reasonable decorum, something obviously you and Bells did not expect, and just as obviously, put a big fat hole in your plan.