euthanizing the elderly?

Even this hard-nosed Libertarian has no objection to state-funded charity, if it's performed wisely. We don't want feeble old people lying around on the sidewalk attracting flies; in fact as a nation we all really do believe in providing a minimal level of care for everyone. Americans are one of the most generous people on earth. Just look at our "poor people": Their most common nutrition-related health problem is OBESITY!.

Are you calling me a hard-nosed libertarian?
Oh I wouldn't mind a portion of my tax dollars going out to better our community. I'm sure this is pretty much a socialistic idea but I'm not a socialist... or am I, I don't know.

So by all means use tax dollars to provide peaceful goodbyes to people who want them. That's a hell of a lot better than paying to keep them alive when they don't want to be. That's what I hope for when I get to that point. Give my my ostrich egg and my iPod and set me down under a tree to watch one last California sunset.

I feel the same way.

Besides, homeless people live on the streets precisely because they want to avoid being institutionalized. When they're younger they can manage to do that. When they're older they get a little slower and less adept, and the system starts to catch up with them and put them away. Any homeless person who is really old and decrepit will NOT be homeless any more, and he will no longer have the authority to make decisions about his own life. America does not leave sick, weak or disoriented people outside.

There are so many worm holes and dishonesty floating around. It is so difficult for everyone to get the same care or essential needs.
 
Are you calling me a hard-nosed libertarian?
No, I'm referring to myself. I'm both a small-l libertarian philosophically and a capital-L registered Libertarian voter.
Oh I wouldn't mind a portion of my tax dollars going out to better our community. I'm sure this is pretty much a socialistic idea but I'm not a socialist... or am I, I don't know.
Socialism has two components: A) An egalitarian society and B) State or collective ownership of the tools of production and distribution of good and services.

Wanting every citizen to have equal opportunity to acquire the necessities for survival and security--Steps One and Two on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs--could obviously be regarded pedantically as a first step toward Component A) of socialism. But in a civilization with great surplus wealth it's also seen as the minimal obligation of any government. Believing that people should not be allowed to die in the street does not make you a socialist by any practical definition. Even believing that a person who is merely very ill, but not yet terminally so, should be taken to a county hospital where the doctors will treat him asynchronously with the administrative staff's efforts to figure out who's going to pay for it all, just makes you an American left-liberal, not a socialist. ("Liberal" originally meant what "libertarian" means today. But the Leftists stole our name.)

But the line is crossed to true socialism when you advocate Component B) of socialism: ownership of the tools of production and delivery--factories, farms, restaurants, stores, etc.--by the government. Communism has been called a type of socialist politics. Obviously there is a whole spectrum of definitions of the two words.
There are so many worm holes and dishonesty floating around. It is so difficult for everyone to get the same care or essential needs.
Indeed. Still, our way works immensely better than that of our competitors, the other gigantic nations like Russia, India, Brazil, China and Indonesia.

I keep coming back to the stunning phenomenon of obesity being a major health problem for America's poor. You have to be not only poor but mentally ill in America to deliberately evade the safety net and starve to death. That is not true in many countries.
 
No, I'm referring to myself. I'm both a small-l libertarian philosophically and a capital-L registered Libertarian voter.

Okay, I thought it was a reference towards me at first.
Any who, I would consider myself to be philosophically liberal and Politically I am about 75% liberal and 25% conservative which may vary between different matters of discussion.

("Liberal" originally meant what "libertarian" means today. But the Leftists stole our name.)

How so?

I keep coming back to the stunning phenomenon of obesity being a major health problem for America's poor. You have to be not only poor but mentally ill in America to deliberately evade the safety net and starve to death. That is not true in many countries.

I see the same thing as well, I wonder what type of happenings could be going on for obesity to be a main issue among the poor. As well as the general public there is no understanding of one's body but rather what is more convient and less time consuming. I know that social-security is a very helpful tool for those who are mentally ill and poor, but some do not have the resources to get such help or simply do not want to be helped.
 
I currently work for an elderly woman. She's 86 years old and suffers from horrible circulation problems in her legs, severe rheumatoid arthritis, horrible scoliosis, digestive tracked doesn't work well and doesn't want to be alive anymore. Due to that that she feels this way and indeed would be helping herself if she passed shouldn't she be able to? I am not talking about people in coma's although that could be brought up, but the elderly that no longer able to become any better and are unable to help or feel good about themselves.

I was just thinking I haven't come to which side I am for yet. Do you think the elderly with critical health conditions should have a say in taking their own lives?

In cases for elderly dogs being euthanized you do it on behalf of their benefit.
So wouldn't it be nice to choose that for yourself?

Just crush some random pills in her prune juice, that outta punch her ticket.
 
Because the elderly are often mentally, as well as physically frail, and could be coerced into euthanising themselves.

To prevent this, there would need to be some sort of legal channel for people to register their intent to euthanise themselves, and then that starts getting tricky, as it appears the state are supporting the action, rather than supporting the individuals choice.

Personally, I think people should be allowed to, but we do have to make sure they are of sound mind at least, before making the decisions, so some referral is very necessary.

PS, congrats Lala, the OP was pretty succinct, and got your point across. Keep up the good work.


Suicide and assisted suicide are not the same. There already have been doctors who have forged wills and legal documents to make it look like the elderly individual wanted to die, and they also set it up so they'd inherit everything the individual owned as (payment).

It's dangerous to give anyone the power to kill because any kinda document can be forged. Someone can forge your signature and then kill you and take all your stuff.
 
suicide is death by self, or act of killing
assisted suicide is death by other, or act of killing

its an act of killing.


I propose to deal with elderly a totally different way. Have a marathon, those who survive, live on, those who do not, do not.

2509471360_026e9cddcd.jpg
 
Suicide and assisted suicide are not the same. There already have been doctors who have forged wills and legal documents to make it look like the elderly individual wanted to die, and they also set it up so they'd inherit everything the individual owned as (payment).

It's dangerous to give anyone the power to kill because any kinda document can be forged. Someone can forge your signature and then kill you and take all your stuff.

That is not beyond the realms of possibility, but do you have any specific examples to offer? (Not from daytime TV that is...)
 
It's dangerous to give anyone the power to kill because any kinda document can be forged. Someone can forge your signature and then kill you and take all your stuff.
Every choice involves balancing its benefits against the inherent risk. Shall we force all miserably old and sick people to live out their torment in order to save a handful of slightly less sick and old people from being killed off a bit early for nefarious purposes?

Besides, any euthanasia requires witnesses. If the patient is still lucid and lying there screaming, "No no! I did not sign that document! Don't let this guy put that stuff into my IV!" you can bet that the witnesses will interfere with the procedure. If the patient is already vegetative, or comatose, or merely more than one taco short of a combination plate, and he is euthanized in violation of the wishes he expressed ten years ago when he was healthy and sane... well then I wonder what we will have lost? As (surely) the oldest person participating in this discussion and the one who's nearest the time of the topic becoming more than academic, well, my vote is to err on the side of death. I think people who want their body to be kept alive when they're no longer inside it, or when the person inside it is some horrible imitation of the real them who torments their loved ones with desecrated memories, are selfish.

I would rather have my estate go to an unscrupulous doctor who will dissipate it by having a good time with his wife for ten or twenty years, than be spent on providing life support for my empty shell. Or worse yet, on keeping me alive and in pain when I can't talk.

I'm too old to be a Baby Boomer, but I still love Roger Daltrey's line, "Hope I die before I get old." "Old" is subjective, but it's clearly not far off. When the experience of being old starts to involve significant pain, sadness or loss of dignity, I would very much like to die before I get that far.

If I ever lose my hearing and can no longer listen to music, pull the damn plug immediately.
 
when i was in hospital i signed a DNR order, did they have to honor it? because my solicitor also has instructions if i ever fell ill again to make sure the DNR is seen and adhered to, so your telling me Fraggle that docotrs nurses dont have to honor them?

====================

because i know if i am ever to ill to look after myself and i cant do anything i would want to die peaceful and with dignity, i would want my partner to make sure the order was seen through to the last letter
 
when i was in hospital i signed a DNR order, did they have to honor it? because my solicitor also has instructions if i ever fell ill again to make sure the DNR is seen and adhered to, so your telling me Fraggle that docotrs nurses dont have to honor them?

====================

because i know if i am ever to ill to look after myself and i cant do anything i would want to die peaceful and with dignity, i would want my partner to make sure the order was seen through to the last letter

If you had a heart attack and the ambulance crew saved you, I would think that would be ok. I mean, how would they know??
 
I currently work for an elderly woman. She's 86 years old and suffers from horrible circulation problems in her legs, severe rheumatoid arthritis, horrible scoliosis, digestive tracked doesn't work well and doesn't want to be alive anymore. Due to that that she feels this way and indeed would be helping herself if she passed shouldn't she be able to? I am not talking about people in coma's although that could be brought up, but the elderly that no longer able to become any better and are unable to help or feel good about themselves.

I was just thinking I haven't come to which side I am for yet. Do you think the elderly with critical health conditions should have a say in taking their own lives?

In cases for elderly dogs being euthanized you do it on behalf of their benefit.
So wouldn't it be nice to choose that for yourself?

This is a universal problem and it is badly handled in our civilization. We are so over-crowded here on this little planet that we are stripping it of its resources and building up stress and hunger. Yet, the old idological systems that provide some unity and bonding to us are so old and decrepit that they keep us from even aborting unwanted fetuses and from executing child torturers and murderers. On top of that, we keep old and suffering people
alive when they want to die and spend enough keeping alive people with I.Q.s of anywhere up from say 20 to 50 alive and at unbelievable cost in care and provision.

All this reflects badly on the way our society functions and shows how much we need to replace the whole ideological system. We need to get rid of the old-religion-secular ideological mishmass that governs public opinion. We need a new world view as the wave of the future to bring us to where we can deal with such ominous problems.

charles
http://atheistic-science.com
 
when i was in hospital i signed a DNR order, did they have to honor it? because my solicitor also has instructions if i ever fell ill again to make sure the DNR is seen and adhered to, so your telling me Fraggle that docotrs nurses dont have to honor them?
Since you use the word "solicitor" instead of "attorney," you're obviously not an American, so I can't say how it would work in your country. Over here, it's very difficult to enforce a DNR. You almost need to check the attitude of the hospitals that serve your neighborhood before you buy a house there. And you could still become ill at work and be taken to a different hospital.
because i know if i am ever to ill to look after myself and i cant do anything i would want to die peaceful and with dignity, i would want my partner to make sure the order was seen through to the last letter
I don't know how old you are. We're all hoping that the Baby Boomers will force a reform of the right-to-die issue, just as they've dictated the evolution of every other aspect of American culture since the hula hoop and rock'n'roll. Our members under forty might well grow old in an era when their own end-of-life wishes will be respected.

At this time, if you're in an institution for the elderly and infirm, and your health deteriorates to the point of irreversible suffering and indignity, and you have a living will and a partner or family member to enforce it, they will eventually succeed in letting you die in peace, but it probably won't happen as quickly as either of you hoped and expected.

The problem is for younger people, say my age in their 60s, who don't want to be resuscitated from a heart attack or accident trauma. Our country just doesn't have the procedures in place for the first responders to be informed of your wishes, and their focus is on saving your life rather than searching your body for tags or tattoos or listening to your wife scream, "No no, he doesn't want that!" By the time they rush you to a hospital and a doctor has revived you and you're awake but a quadriplegic or something like that, nobody is going to take the rather extreme measures necessary to force you to die, retroactively as it were.
If you had a heart attack and the ambulance crew saved you, I would think that would be ok. I mean, how would they know??
That's my point. In a retirement home where you've gone downhill slowly, it's one thing. But it's quite different in an emergency situation.

And no, it would not "be ok" with me. I've known a few people who had heart attacks in their 60s and were "saved." They all wished they were dead. Being 65 can be all right if you're in really good health, which means you've got a lot of aches and pains and a few body parts that don't quite work right and some of the adventures you put off a little too long are already out of reach, but still you can get something out of life. But to be 65 and have a body that went through the trauma of a heart attack means you're suddenly somewhere between being a creaky old geezer who can just barely get around, and being a genuine invalid. No thanks.

And perhaps worst of all, heart attacks used to be an almost merciful way to die. You were alive and then bingo you were gone. Now they're saving us from that so we get to have wretched, painful (and expensive!) prolonged deaths from horrible things like cancer. No thanks!

Oregon, anyone? Or Holland?
 
orleander and shorty: this is not an atack on you its ment to correct a mestake made by FR

FR

Please NOTE:


In regard to the quoted portions of shorty and orleanders posts
Please stop saying that. I NEVER said that AT ALL. You have been compleatly miss representing what i said and i have pointed it out to you MULTIPLE times and still you continue to use it. What i SAID was VERY specific.

a DNR in Australia is a MEDICAL ORDER put into your records by a DOCTOR and possably against your will or even without your knowlage. It can be challanged by the family, the person themselves or the courts (specifically the supreem courts and the guardanship board). It has very little legal weight and YES ambo's ect can ignore it WHERE THEY BELIVE IT IS NOT IN THE INTRESTS OF THE PT.

where you have been missrepresenting me is that a DNR is NOT what a pt takes out on themselves in order to make sure there own wishes are carried out when they are unable to make there own wishes clear because of unconciousness or loss of mental capacity.

These are a COMPLEATLY DIFFERENT set of orders of which there are 3

*Advanced directives made under the concent act
*Medical power of attorney given to a person to concent or withold concent as you desire under the concent act
*enduring power of guardianship given under the guardianship act (this one goes FAR behond what is alowed under the concent act which is strictly medical)

Further more there is a last one for people who havent made any provisons of there own and this is an order made by the guardianship board itself.

Ignoring any of these carry CRIMINAL CHARGES and people HAVE been procuted for delibratly ignoring them.
 
I think here in teh US, teh only way a docter kan do that is if the pashunt if brayn dead. I am shure you no all aboot that Asguard, bein medikal and all.
 
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