eruvs

[Michael 345]

eruv

noun JUDAISM

plural noun: eruvs

an urban area enclosed by a wire boundary which symbolically extends the private domain of Jewish households into public areas, permitting activities within it that are normally forbidden in public on the Sabbath.

Definitions from Oxford Languages

A intriguing work around

A sample in Britain

Eruvs

Eruvs in Britain

Britain's first, and biggest, eruv was created in February 2003. The eruv has a boundary 11 miles long and encloses an area of 6.5 square miles. It covers Hendon, Golders Green and Hampstead Garden Suburb, together with parts of Childs Hill, Cricklewood, East Finchley, Finchley and Mill Hill.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/reli...s in Britain,Finchley, Finchley and Mill Hill.

List of places with Eruvs - includes some in Australia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin

What happened to seperation church/state?

Why are various levels of government allowing a religious work around (assisting a religion to cheat on itself) to be implemented?

 

[DaveC426913]

When I first read about eruvs, just a couple of years ago, I went looking for the one our city (Toronto) has. They're are very hard to spot.

What happened to seperation church/state?
Why are various levels of government allowing a religious work around (assisting a religion to cheat on itself) to be implemented?

These questions make no sense.

 

[Michael 345]

These questions make no sense.

Why are various levels of Government allowing Eruvs to be, not exactly constructed, but defined?

Do the various levels of Government feel obliged to cater for, to me, a very contrived work-a-round suspect construct (We'll run a bit of wire between these poles (Government property) and call it a wall)

Believe what you like about your religious laws ie
In Jewish tradition it is commonly said that "carrying" is forbidden on Shabbat. Specifically, "transferring between domains" (הוצאה מרשות לרשות‎) is considered one of the 39 categories of activity prohibited on Shabbat.

WELL DON'T DO IT OR THEM - the whole 39 activities

What other work-a-rounds have you contrived to avoid being inconvenience by your own beliefs?

Would it not be easier to scrap the whole 39 beliefs?

 

[DaveC426913]

Why are various levels of Government allowing Eruvs to be, not exactly constructed, but defined?

"allowing"? What kind of government do you live in?

Do the various levels of Government feel obliged to cater for,

Cater?

to me, a very contrived work-a-round suspect construct (We'll run a bit of wire between these poles (Government property) and call it a wall)

Are you one of those people who believe others should only get to do things that make sense to you?

Would it not be easier to scrap the whole 39 beliefs?

Easier for whom? You?

 

[Michael 345]

"allowing"? What kind of government do you live in?

Well I am taking the view the makers of Eruvs are required to apply to some level of Government to attach their structure to public structures. And that level of Government has allowed the applicants to do so

Cater

1am

Are you one of those people who believe others should only get to do things that make sense to you?

Noooo hence the "to me"

Easier for whom? You?

Since I don't believe in any of the 39 whatever's not me

Easier for current believers

 

[DaveC426913]

Well I am taking the view the makers of Eruvs are required to apply to some level of Government to attach their structure to public structures. And that level of Government has allowed the applicants to do so

Sure. And the church down the street from me "Our Lady of Eternal Pain and Suffering" probably applied to have their structure attached to water main, electrical and sewer mains.
That's what governments do.

Noooo hence the "to me"

Ok, so the eruvs are a personal inconvenience directly to you, if not, why are your views on their religious efficacy relevant?

Easier for current believers

So this is just a general 'why not ditch the whole thing' slam of the religion for its own sake?

 

[Write4U]

So this is just a general 'why not ditch the whole thing' slam of the religion for its own sake?

IMO, it just demonstrates that everything in religion is negotiable.

 

[Michael 345]

Sure. And the church down the street from me "Our Lady of Eternal Pain and Suffering" probably applied to have their structure attached to water main, electrical and sewer mains.
That's what governments do.

Those are secular normal services not reques to cater for a structure to assist religious beliefs

Ok, so the eruvs are a personal inconvenience directly to you, if not, why are your views on their religious efficacy relevant?

Again seperation Government / church

So this is just a general 'why not ditch the whole thing' slam of the religion for its own sake?

And again seperation Government / church

 

[Write4U]

Those are secular normal services not reques to cater for a structure to assist religious beliefs.
Again seperation Government / church
And again seperation Government / church

In the US, religious institutions and properties are tax exempt and have certain legal protections from government interference. This is covered by the "Establishment Clause".

The Establishment Clause is a limitation placed upon the United States Congress preventing it from passing legislation forcing an establishment of religion, broadly making it illegal for the government to promote theocracy or promote a specific religion with taxes. The second half of the Establishment Clause inherently prohibits the government from preventing the free exercise of religion.

Establishment Clause - Wikipedia

 

[DaveC426913]

Again seperation Government / church

What do you think "separation of church and state" means?

 

[Michael 345]

What do you think "separation of church and state" means?

Means Government makes no law to impose Religion on its citizens and does not get involved in religion

Granting permission for Religion to use its facilities opens the door for every Religion to request the use of Government facilities so the Religion may follow its beliefs

Insert here something about wedges with thin edges and slopes which are slippery

And it might just be atheist when they understand what a eruv is complain "You mean that bit of wire represents a wall so it turns this public space into a fake extension of a believer's (an urban area enclosed by a wire boundary which symbolically extends the private domain of Jewish households into public areas, permitting activities within it that are normally forbidden in public on the Sabbath.
Definitions from Oxford Languages) household. Well I am not comfortable in walking through a believer's household, fake or not"

 

[DaveC426913]

Means Government makes no law to impose Religion on its citizens

And that applies here how?

Granting permission for Religion to use its facilities

Like water? electricity? sewage?

Must every church have a well, a windmill and an incinerator on its property?

Insert here something about wedges with thin edges and slopes which are slippery

Yes. That warning works both ways.

Well I am not comfortable in walking through a believer's household, fake or not"

As suspected, you appear to be one of those who feel that the only things that should be allowed are things that benefit you.

 

[Michael 345]

And that applies here how?

You asked for a definition
Gave you a definition

Like water? electricity? sewage?

These are PUBLIC facilities available to all
So what happens when another Religion comes along with a request
Hey we like the idea of a eruv so we can do stuff we are not really allowed to do. When and where can we set our up?"

As suspected, you appear to be one of those who feel that the only things that should be allowed are things that benefit you.

Seriously?
(Well I am not comfortable in walking through a believer's household, fake or not)
You don't think such a complaint could / wouldn't be made by other generic religious people or generic atheist?

 

[DaveC426913]

You asked for a definition
Gave you a definition

OK, so you concede that separation of church and state is not relevant to this discussion. What's the chance you'll apologize for a 20 post side track with no basis?

These are PUBLIC facilities available to all

No they're not. They're available to landowners who pay property taxes.
Churches are landowners who pay property taxes.

So what happens when another Religion comes along with a request

How about if a non-religion comes along with their own frivolous request?

So, I'm a church, paying taxes to my government so I can make my Holy water and light my altar.
And this one dude comes along and says 'I don't like that. You should stop.'
Why should I stop? Because you say so?
Who says your right to do what you want supersedes my right to do what I want?
I pay my taxes.

(Well I am not comfortable in walking through a believer's household, fake or not)

Why not?
Either you believe it's really their household and manifestly impinges on your personal sovereignty, or you think it's harmless delusional superstition.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

You don't think such a complaint could / wouldn't be made by other generic religious people or generic atheist?

So far, it's just you.

Are you just playing Devil's Avocado for gits and shiggles? Just to stir the pot?

 

[Michael 345]

OK, so you concede that separation of church and state is not relevant to this discussion. What's the chance you'll apologize for a 20 post side track with no basis?



No they're not. They're available to landowners who pay property taxes.
Churches are landowners who pay property taxes.



How about if a non-religion comes along with their own frivolous request?

So, I'm a church, paying taxes to my government so I can make my Holy water and light my altar.
And this one dude comes along and says 'I don't like that. You should stop.'
Why should I stop? Because you say so?
Who says your right to do what you want supersedes my right to do what I want?
I pay my taxes.



Why not?
Either you believe it's really their household and manifestly impinges on your personal sovereignty, or you think it's harmless delusional superstition.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.


So far, it's just you.

Are you just playing Devil's Avocado for gits and shiggles? Just to stir the pot?

I was answering point by point but breakfast arrived when I return the reply I had already typed had gone
To lazy to go through again

I will do part here

delusional superstition. or not the Religious person believes it and so why is a Government Department buying into a religious delusion

How about if a non-religion comes along with their own frivolous request?

I would expect them to reject it THE SAME AS THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE REJECTED THE FRIVOLOUS DELUSIONAL REQUEST THAT BY PUTTING A WIRE ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY IT MAGICALLY TURNS INTO A WALL WHICH THEN MAGICALLY ALLOWS SAID RELIGIOUS PERSON TO CARRY OUT ACTIVITIES HIS OWN RELIGION BANS THEM FROM DOING
In one stroke a Government Department has

• enabled a delusional person to engage in their delusion and
• put Government property to be part of the delusion
• opened the Government Department to ANYONE to put forward their favourite delusion

So far, it's just you.

So far just you also

 

[DaveC426913]

...why is a Government Department buying into a religious delusion

You keep making these vague, hand-wavey insinuations. What does "buying into" mean for a government to do?

How about if a non-religion comes along with their own frivolous request?

I would expect them to reject it

OK, your non-religious request for people to stop attaching wires to poles is rejected.

Are we done here?

THE SAME AS THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE REJECTED THE FRIVOLOUS DELUSIONAL REQUEST THAT BY PUTTING A WIRE ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY IT MAGICALLY TURNS INTO A WALL WHICH THEN MAGICALLY ALLOWS SAID RELIGIOUS PERSON TO CARRY OUT ACTIVITIES HIS OWN RELIGION BANS THEM FROM DOING

You do realize the Jews are taxpayers and voters, right? They are part of the body people who get to vote on what freedoms their country supports.

In one stroke a Government Department has

• enabled a delusional person to engage in their delusion and

The government is not in the business of telling people what they can and can't believe.
That is what 'separation of church and state' means.
It means freedom. To practice their beliefs - without state interference or persecution.

So far, it's just you

So far just you also

No it isn't. There are almost 400,000 tax-paying, voting Jews in my city alone who are exercising their right to religious freedom.
Tell me what city you're in and I'll tell you how many tax-paying, voting Jews you have who are exercising their right to religious freedom.

So far, there's one of you. And you are not exercising your right to religious freedom; you are trying to oppress others from doing so.

What you need to do is write to your congressperson (or its equivalent where you live) and complain that your rights are being oppressed by these eruvs. Let me know how that goes.

 

[Michael 345]

You keep making these vague, hand-wavey insinuations. What does "buying into" mean for a government to do?



OK, your non-religious request for people to stop attaching wires to poles is rejected.

Are we done here?




You do realize the Jews are taxpayers and voters, right? They are part of the body people who get to vote on what freedoms their country supports.



The government is not in the business of telling people what they can and can't believe.
That is what 'separation of church and state' means.
It means freedom. To practice their beliefs - without state interference or persecution.



No it isn't. There are almost 400,000 tax-paying, voting Jews in my city alone who are exercising their right to religious freedom.
Tell me what city you're in and I'll tell you how many tax-paying, voting Jews you have who are exercising their right to religious freedom.

So far, there's one of you. And you are not exercising your right to religious freedom; you are trying to oppress others from doing so.

What you need to do is write to your congressperson (or its equivalent where you live) and complain that your rights are being oppressed by these eruvs. Let me know how that goes.

Sorry feed up with spoon feeding you answers many of which you should be able to work out what would be my response

You appear to be like a petulant child with a stream of whys

I'll give one explanation to the above post and I'm done

eruv
noun JUDAISM
plural noun: eruvs
an urban area enclosed by a wire boundary which symbolically extends the private domain of Jewish households into public areas, permitting activities within it that are normally forbidden in public on the Sabbath.

Definitions from Oxford Languages
MY TAKE - A delusional construct to enable a group of religious people to dodge playing by the rules of the religion
MY TAKE - Don't add delusion (D2 wire equals a wall construct) to a delusion (D1 now under the delusional wall can do activities forbidden on Sabbath) to correct D1 MY TAKE - get rid of D1
{Incidentally if I read in a patient's notes
* believes if a wire is strung up it represents a wall and patient can engage in activities normally forbidden to patient *
I would make extra sure said patient obtain medication on time

I would not expect a patient with a diagnosis of
* patient believes cannot engage in normal everyday activities on particular day of the week *
to have said delusion treated with
* let's give patient another delusion which negates the first delusion *
I smell mal practice}

Work out your own replies to your questions from my above post

Just for interest - Currently I am stranded in Kuta, Bali Indonesia with a fractured left head of humerus (stranded 10 months - fracture 2 months). X-ray available on request. Closest city Denpasar

Normal residence Darwin, Australia

Waiting for COVID-19 restrictions to lift to return to Darwin for operation to shoulder

Would be very surprised if you would find any eruv in the whole of Indonesia
Don't think Darwin has any

 

[DaveC426913]

Sorry feed up with spoon feeding you answers many of which you should be able to work out what would be my response

The reason you think you have to spoonfeed me your thoughts is because your logic about what governments do is murky - even to you. You use meaningless insinuations (such as "buying into") and invoke phrases you don't understand (such as "separation of church and state") but never actually say in rational explicit terms what mandates you think these governments are actually violating.

At the same time, there appears to be a lot of depth to your free-floating hatred of religion. This is not an appropriate place to unpack it.