Entropy and the Life-Force

wesmorris

wesmorris

Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N
Valued Senior Member
Just trying to get some input here... here's my theory.. please reply:

the "life force" is the opposite of entropy.

Possibly the life force, oh.. I should explain. You know about gravity right? Einstein? Space-Time? Right.

Okay, well, here's another hypothesis: A force exists in the universe that makes things want to be alive, I call it "the life force" for lack of a better term. It is similar to gravity in that it is a fundamental force of the universe.

Okay back to the possibly part: Contemplating entropy and the "conservation of energy" principle would not the life force be a strong condidate for perfect compliment to balance entropy?
 
Well, every other scientist in the world is tying to find some mysterious new force to help explain things. Personally I hope someone does, so we can open up entire new technologies using that force.
 
My input - Put some more meat behind these ideas. Setup an experiment to get evidence of the existance of this 'life force'. Otherwise its a nice thought but only that...

A force exists in the universe that makes things want to be alive
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If this is so, why is such a tiny percentage of matter/energy in the universe 'alive'? What constitutes 'life' to you?
 
the evidence that things just want to somehow be alive I believe is presented best on the discovery channel. *giggle*

but for real, life exists at the bottom of the deepest oceans where every scientist in the world thought that is should be impossible... the sulfer vents at the bottom of the trench? It's just not right that life exists there yet it does... I'm only extrapolating (quite logically) that there must therefore be something that makes things live. I don't know what it is, but it is obvious that it's there or this conversation wouldn't be.. eh?

you're right about your input but to really have meat to the idea the scale of observation has to increase beyond earth. this process is in progress, I'm just again, extrapolating the known into the unknown..

oh, and it's obvious as well that there are conditions that have to be met for life to exist. what those conditions are was not really the point however. I'm playing with philosophy, not biology. :cool:
 
oh and, how do you know what percentage of the universe/matter or whatever is alive? there is no way to verify that even remotely at this point. this does not mean however that my theory is incorrect nor does it make it correct.

hmm.. however, I've been toying with the idea: is it possible to objectively prove something on the merit of its reason and logic alone? I mean, could the idea of the "life force" for instance be proven beyond a doubt by philosophical inquiry and rigourous debate? hmm.. that's stupid huh? have to have some evidence of some kind, but is the argument itself in this case evidence? Eh, I'm just meandering.. pardon.
 
Perhaps there is a source of constant motion that set all other in motion. The only reason things die in this universe is because they have lost there initial momentum. As we age each cell in our body dies and regenerates. What causes the cycle of the cells to start? And why do they eventually stop producing? Perhaps it is the lose of the initial momentum, that initial charge that has sustained us since birth.
 
Originally posted by Empty Dragon
Perhaps there is a source of constant motion that set all other in motion. The only reason things die in this universe is because they have lost there initial momentum. As we age each cell in our body dies and regenerates. What causes the cycle of the cells to start? And why do they eventually stop producing? Perhaps it is the lose of the initial momentum, that initial charge that has sustained us since birth.
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uh.. well.. I spoze that's a nice thought but "things" don't die. do you understand what entropy is? It's an important concept regarding energy. You should look it up.

organisms die because they are genetically programmed to do so. current science (to my knowledge) basically states that cells generally stop dividing because there is a genetic switch that at some point tells them to do so. I believe a substance called "tellurides" or something like that is believed to be directly tied to aging in humans.

cells begin dividing at conception because a sperm fertilizes an egg which sets in motion a set of chemical reactions that will likely result in a human.

so.. I suppose there's something kind of poetic to what you're trying to say, but doesn't really do much to add or detract from the topic for the thread.
 
okay, I'll make it easy. how does this strike you?

Entropy = Order -> Chaos
Life Force = Chaos -> Order
 
I wouldn't say Chaos or order really do exist.

I guess I could have been more careful with my words, less talk about "things" and "dying".

genetic switch that at some point tells them to do so. I believe a substance called "tellurides" or something like that is believed to be directly tied to aging in humans.
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Why would the human body need such a chemical switch? What purpose would that serve?
Why would the human body age its self?
That would be conterproductive to survival. So why create this genetic switch?
 
Originally posted by Empty Dragon
I wouldn't say Chaos or order really do exist.
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The terms "order" and "chaos" are terms used in physics for an "ordered" or "chaotic" system. Loosely applied, a glass that you would drink from is an ordered system. Drop it and it breaks to become a chaotic system. This system increased in entropy as the glass broke because that process is irreversable. The wholeness of that particular glass can never be regained.

Originally posted by Empty Dragon
I guess I could have been more careful with my words, less talk about "things" and "dying".

Why would the human body need such a chemical switch? What purpose would that serve? Why would the human body age its self?
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You are asking me? I didn't create it, I'm just reporting what I know from a bunch of college and discovery channel and news and blah blah. I'm knowledgable (hehe, kind of). You are asking questions that have no point in the current context. Why a switch? It just IS a switch.

Originally posted by Empty Dragon
That would be conterproductive to survival. So why create this genetic switch?
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You think YOU know what would and wouldn't be productive considering survival? Did you consider that you're not that bright? I'm not that bright either, but well, howzbout this: Does the survival of the individual within the group directly correlate to the survival of the species? NO it does not. It does sometimes. others, not so much and the dynamic of the entire system of survival for a species like humans is likely beyond the capability of current science to qualify.
 
wesmorris

do you understand what entropy is?

Judging by your posts, I would ask you the same question.
 
The terms "order" and "chaos" are terms used in physics for an "ordered" or "chaotic" system. Loosely applied, a glass that you would drink from is an ordered system. Drop it and it breaks to become a chaotic system. This system increased in entropy as the glass broke because that process is irreversable. The wholeness of that particular glass can never be regained.
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The wholeness of the broken glass can never be regained as well. What is the diffence between the wholeness of the broken glass and the "complete" glass, accept function.

You are asking me? I didn't create it, I'm just reporting what I know from a bunch of college and discovery channel and news and blah blah. I'm knowledgable (hehe, kind of). You are asking questions that have no point in the current context. Why a switch? It just IS a switch.
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As a very crude metaphor, why would you build a light switch in a house. Because you need too turn it on and off. What is the need for death?

Would you evolve gils if you never incountered a situation where they would be usefull? Does evolution create useless abilities?

You think YOU know what would and wouldn't be productive considering survival?
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I don't think it would be productive concering personal survival.

QUOTE]Did you consider that you're not that bright? I'm not that bright either, but well, howzbout this: Does the survival of the individual within the group directly correlate to the survival of the species? NO it does not. It does sometimes. others, not so much and the dynamic of the entire system of survival for a species like humans is likely beyond the capability of current science to qualify.[/QUOTE]

Life as we know it needs to be sustained. Correct?
Then that switch could be nessecary for the survival of the planet as well as the species. Perhaps a form of genetic population control so as not to over use the resources of the area. So I guess I have awnsered my own question. Is was going to relate this to a theory about life force but it know longer seems practical.

I would see life force as the energy that animates and forms all of existance. How can this be proven? I'm up for debating this point.
 
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Originally posted by (Q)
wesmorris

do you understand what entropy is?

Judging by your posts, I would ask you the same question.
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okay, well, I think i understand entropy. I'm almost sure that I do at least fundamentally. I'd have to open a physics book to be able to make any calculations aboot it, but I understand this:

entropy is basically the fact that a closed system can only lose energy. it is the arrow of time. it's implicit of newton's second law right? I'm sure that there's some iteration of the same concept in tensor form, or combined with or through general relativity (both of which I only understand on a very basic level)

it's been a while since I took thermo, so pardon. please, if I'm mistaken.. enlighten me.
 
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makes things want to be alive
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I would say that want is a human concept and therefor irrelevent to the truth. But however unlikley it is possible that humans have an impact on the truth (mind you I only say it is possible since I personally do not know the truth). Does all living matter have a want too be alive. To want you must be aware of your existance. Does awareness take mental capacity?
 
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Originally posted by Empty Dragon
I would say that want is a human concept and therefor irrelevent to the truth. But however unlikley it is possible that humans have an impact on the truth (mind you I only say it is possible since I personally do not know the truth). Does all living matter have a want too be alive. To want you must be aware of your existance. Does awareness take mental capacity?
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you're getting hung up on semantics. you are correct, so I will correct myself. I was on a roll... what that meant is: "there is a force that given satisfactory conditions - creates life"
 
Interesting....But why would such a force be related to only so few opportunities. Or perhaps ther are many forces each relating to differnt situations.

I could see that these "force" would need a some sort of gate way too pass through. Is the satifactory conditions the gate way or opening for such force. Where else would such an energy come from unless it is intergrated in the form of the universe.
I guess my question is where do you think this force would come from?
 
Originally posted by Empty Dragon
I guess my question is where do you think this force would come from?
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Well, if you can tell me why gravity exerts a force I can tell you why there is a life-force. I have no idea. It's like asking "why is the universe the way it is?" at this point I'm quite sure there is no reasonable answer. As gravity exerts force over distance, the life force awaits the proper conditions to spring forth with life. At least that's the way it seems eh?

(I know phsyics majors... there are only two fundamental forces, strong and weak bla blah, I'm philosophizing here.. give me a break)

Okay, I could wildy theorize.. but it's too much for now. I'll let you in on crazy funky wild theories over time. I'm still testing the waters. This is my tame stuff.
 
Well, if you can tell me why gravity exerts a force I can tell you why there is a life-force.
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Well perhaps the earth its self has its own life force. And the force of gravity is directly related to the life force of the earth. What I mean is, what if what keep the life force on earth is the gravity.
 
Originally posted by Empty Dragon
Well perhaps the earth its self has its own life force. And the force of gravity is directly related to the life force of the earth. What I mean is, what if what keep the life force on earth is the gravity.
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hehe, well, you're exactly correct but I don't think in the way you meant to be. for sure life force is held here on earth by gravity. I believe few would deny that. :) eheheh.

I have no clue if the earth has it's own life force. that's the "gaia" theory or however you spell it. basically promoted in the final fantasy movie. I'm indifferent towards the theory myself.
 
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