Enlightenment in 3 quick and easy steps

[spidergoat]

I don't feel like I have too much happiness. I feel like I have too many stressors.

I don't understand how zen practioners cutting off their arm fits into the conversation. Other than the simple wisdom that one should do something with their life. I can think of lots of positive things to do with one's life, like working for a living, taking up martial arts, cleaning one's house, socializing.

It just means that if you are looking for happiness, you can look somewhere else. Like you say, martial arts, socializing, and all the rest. But if being in your own skin is such a burden you are willing to cut off your own arm, that shows a serious dedication to the problem. Overkill, but indicative of some commitment. I doubt with your attachment to the idea of the soul, you can transcend the self easily. Far from an illusion, it's your worldview that the soul is the only real thing that matters. It's eternal and it's behavior will be judged. It might be hard for you to think of self as an artificial construct, less real even than the biology in which it's based. The happiness that realization of this illusion can bring is that of being in a fight and realizing that you are invisible and there is nothing for an enemy to attack.

 

[elte]

You seem at peace, elte. Always shines through your posts. If you wish to be in a relationship or not, you seem to have achieved a sense of balance and peace. (from what I've seen of your postings here)

You have a calming effect, I think.

Thank you so much wegs.

My serious journey to understanding things better about humanity began after 9/11. I wondered, "why do people hate other people?" I eventually concluded that the attitude of competing against other people was basically the culprit.

Competitors (against others is the default meaning) have an attitude of uncaring if the other guy gets hurt. This can be described as antisocial in mild cases. In severe cases it is sociopathic. I tend to judge such activity with a severe interpretation. So, I'm generally against competition. I haven't a desire to compete against people here. I just wish to think of my ideas competing against other ideas. That helps me to post with less emotion and more calmly.

I determined that the attitude of competition should be against harmful things like pests and diseases, hunger, aging, ignorance, earth-bound asteroids, decline in ecosystems that support us, etc. If we compete against each other, we are taking focus off of stuff like those bad things.

 

[Lakon]

Thank you so much wegs.

My serious journey to understanding things better about humanity began after 9/11. I wondered, "why do people hate other people?" I eventually concluded that the attitude of competing against other people was basically the culprit.

Alas, your journey has then led you down a blind alley. Competition is inherit in all life forms. Theory Of Evolution and all that .. survival of the fittest (strongest).

Competitors (against others is the default meaning) have an attitude of uncaring if the other guy gets hurt. This can be described as antisocial in mild cases. In severe cases it is sociopathic. I tend to judge such activity with a severe interpretation.

Too severe. It's nature. The life force which you've been given by nature is essentially competitive.

So, I'm generally against competition. I haven't a desire to compete against people here. I just wish to think of my ideas competing against other ideas. That helps me to post with less emotion and more calmly.

You've contradicted yourself. With what other means are you going to compete on an internet forum other than ideas ? You haven't come live boxing via internet or something, have you ?

I determined that the attitude of competition should be against harmful things like pests and diseases, hunger, aging, ignorance, earth-bound asteroids, decline in ecosystems that support us, etc. If we compete against each other, we are taking focus off of stuff like those bad things.

A very bad, and wrong determination. Nature again, has got it just right. Imagine if we DID cure, or even mitigate, pests, diseases, hunger, ignorance, war .. have you then contemplated the consequeces for 7.3 billion healthy, happy, human beings ? What's the first thing they're going to do ?

 

[Mazulu]

It just means that if you are looking for happiness, you can look somewhere else. Like you say, martial arts, socializing, and all the rest. But if being in your own skin is such a burden you are willing to cut off your own arm, that shows a serious dedication to the problem. Overkill, but indicative of some commitment. I doubt with your attachment to the idea of the soul, you can transcend the self easily. Far from an illusion, it's your worldview that the soul is the only real thing that matters. It's eternal and it's behavior will be judged. It might be hard for you to think of self as an artificial construct, less real even than the biology in which it's based. The happiness that realization of this illusion can bring is that of being in a fight and realizing that you are invisible and there is nothing for an enemy to attack.

It gives me peace that we can get down to the real issue. I do get a lot out of having a soul, but very little out of the delusion of atheism. There is something about spiritual energies moving through me that gives me peace. The closest thing that I can match it up to in physics would be the quantum randomness. It's as if there are positive energies moving through the quantum randomness. A belief in atheism seems to close the doors to those energies. But maybe putting one's hope in quantum mechanics does no justice to either QM or to spirit; like settling for a low quality meal. Spiritual energies lead to emotional and social openness, and a million other pearls.

If atheism gives you peace, then what more can I say? I just experience the world differently.

 

[Mazulu]

Alas, your journey has then led you down a blind alley. Competition is inherit in all life forms. Theory Of Evolution and all that .. survival of the fittest (strongest).



Too severe. It's nature. The life force which you've been given by nature is essentially competitive.



You've contradicted yourself. With what other means are you going to compete on an internet forum other than ideas ? You haven't come live boxing via internet or something, have you ?



A very bad, and wrong determination. Nature again, has got it just right. Imagine if we DID cure, or even mitigate, pests, diseases, hunger, ignorance, war .. have you then contemplated the consequeces for 7.3 billion healthy, happy, human beings ? What's the first thing they're going to do ?

Lakon,
I actually struggle with what you say about competition. In a way, I think you're right. I think that competition is an important part of being alive. But maybe Elte is right when he says that competition can overflow into hostility and eventually war.

 

[elte]

Lakon,
I actually struggle with what you say about competition. In a way, I think you're right. I think that competition is an important part of being alive. But maybe Elte is right when he says that competition can overflow into hostility and eventually war.

Thank you, Mazulu.

 

[wegs]

I disagree about competition. If you are living your life as best you can, in search of your own personal peace and well being...you don't and won't feel the need to compete against others. To me, competition is an illusion of what some feel is necessary for success.

Live your life on your own terms, your own rules, and find your own sense of values and peace. We're often taught to compete in order to "get ahead" in life, but whose standards are we to compete against?

Competition isn't necessary to move forward; it's just an illusion that man has created to feel like he's moving forward.

 

[elte]

I disagree about competition. If you are living your life as best you can, in search of your own personal peace and well being...you don't and won't feel the need to compete against others. To me, competition is an illusion of what some feel is necessary for success.

Live your life on your own terms, your own rules, and find your own sense of values and peace. We're often taught to compete in order to "get ahead" in life, but whose standards are we to compete against?

Competition isn't necessary to move forward; it's just an illusion that man has created to feel like he's moving forward.

I knew you understood.

 

[wegs]

I knew you understood.

This isn't to say we won't "find ourselves" in competitive situations, at work, socially, even here on this site. (For there are many who thrive off competing against others lol) But, if you are "happy" in your own skin, you won't feel the urge to compete. It's not biological, rather an evolutionary myth. We may get a charge out of being the "top in our class," etc...but that doesn't necessarily come from competing. Diligence and self determination wins the race. Our race.

I don't need to beat someone out, to win my own race.

I feel ya, elte.

 

[elte]

Indeed, wegs. It's knowing that it's a job well done.

 

[Lakon]

Lakon,
I actually struggle with what you say about competition. In a way, I think you're right. I think that competition is an important part of being alive. But maybe Elte is right when he says that competition can overflow into hostility and eventually war.

Hostility and war are inherit in all life, Maz.

As we speak, I can see through my window the slow motion onslaught as the orange trumpet creeper inexorably spreads it's tentacles into the nearby fruiting passionfruit, in it's ongoing dastardly and murderous rampage against it. Meanwhile, the passionfruit is mounting a rear guard assault of it's own - I saw even this morning, new shoots emanating from the neighbours side of the fence .. go figure - the passionfruit has stealthfully crept along the other side of the fence and emerged clear into the orange trumpet creepers epicentre , wrapping stringy, nascent tentacles .. surely intended for asphyxiation .. along the heart of the enemy .. (but how how did it work out that position ? Intriguing .. !) .

Doesn't matter .. the eucalypt towering over both will have none of this! It drops it's invisible chemical warfare poison on both, so as to retard their growth and keep more of the soil nutrients to itself - flowering and fruiting come lately’s take much more than they deserve, let it be known. At the same time - and perpetually - it maintains it's raging underground root system war of attrition against it’s nearby mortal enemies - those minacious ironbarks trees that just seem to respect no bounds - even among similar life forms (trees).

Doesn't matter .. how can these foolish, dim witted entities ever even know, that I, their God all, will once again, intervene in their petty little existence with my thunderbolts and lightning (clippers and chainsaw) and order the universe to MY liking ? Heh ..

Every act of destruction is an act of creation, Maz.

One races death, annihilation, is the anothers exuberant new life.

A thousand thousand pathogens are now circling you or inside of you, waiting for that eventful moment of liberation .. when your defences (immune system) are compromised by their conspirators, so they can flourish in a bloom of magnificent new life .. at your expense.

This IS life. Get used to it.

A strong man keepeth his castle (though you could hire a band of killer samurais to compassionately kill any usurpers for you, I suppose - if you can afford it).

 

[wynn]

Live your life on your own terms, your own rules, and find your own sense of values and peace.

Which includes competition.

Competition isn't necessary to move forward; it's just an illusion that man has created to feel like he's moving forward.

And pretending there is no competition or that it doesn't matter is just an illusion that some indulge to feel like everything is okay ...

 

[wynn]

A strong man keepeth his castle (though you could hire a band of killer samurais to compassionately kill any usurpers for you, I suppose - if you can afford it).

"Compasionate killing" is a contradiction in terms.

 

[Mazulu]

Hostility and war are inherit in all life, Maz.

As we speak, I can see through my window the slow motion onslaught as the orange trumpet creeper inexorably spreads it's tentacles into the nearby fruiting passionfruit, in it's ongoing dastardly and murderous rampage against it. Meanwhile, the passionfruit is mounting a rear guard assault of it's own - I saw even this morning, new shoots emanating from the neighbours side of the fence .. go figure - the passionfruit has stealthfully crept along the other side of the fence and emerged clear into the orange trumpet creepers epicentre , wrapping stringy, nascent tentacles .. surely intended for asphyxiation .. along the heart of the enemy .. (but how how did it work out that position ? Intriguing .. !) .

Doesn't matter .. the eucalypt towering over both will have none of this! It drops it's invisible chemical warfare poison on both, so as to retard their growth and keep more of the soil nutrients to itself - flowering and fruiting come lately’s take much more than they deserve, let it be known. At the same time - and perpetually - it maintains it's raging underground root system war of attrition against it’s nearby mortal enemies - those minacious ironbarks trees that just seem to respect no bounds - even among similar life forms (trees).

Doesn't matter .. how can these foolish, dim witted entities ever even know, that I, their God all, will once again, intervene in their petty little existence with my thunderbolts and lightning (clippers and chainsaw) and order the universe to MY liking ? Heh ..

Every act of destruction is an act of creation, Maz.

One races death, annihilation, is the anothers exuberant new life.

A thousand thousand pathogens are now circling you or inside of you, waiting for that eventful moment of liberation .. when your defences (immune system) are compromised by their conspirators, so they can flourish in a bloom of magnificent new life .. at your expense.

This IS life. Get used to it.

A strong man keepeth his castle (though you could hire a band of killer samurais to compassionately kill any usurpers for you, I suppose - if you can afford it).

I hate to say it, but I kind of agree. I feel the need to attack atheism, with words and ideas. Just the ability to point to holes in the scientific dogma is a victory for me. I know that it aggravates them that I beat them over the head with these shortcomings. It's partly because I am defending my beliefs that they've trampled, partly because I want science to unlock the BIG secrets to the laws of physics. But deep down I feel like I am participating in some dance of nature, in this case, a war dance.

 

[Lakon]

I hate to say it, but I kind of agree. I feel the need to attack atheism, with words and ideas.

Well, just don't take it too seriously. Sometimes there's a need to .. emm, attack loony theists too. There's good and bad people in both camps, I would say.

Just the ability to point to holes in the scientific dogma is a victory for me.

Two edged sword. What are you going to replace that dogma with ?

I know that it aggravates them that I beat them over the head with these shortcomings.

We all have shortcoming, Maz.

It's partly because I am defending my beliefs that they've trampled, partly because I want science to unlock the BIG secrets to the laws of physics.

How are they going to do that if you constantly beat them over the head ?

But deep down I feel like I am participating in some dance of nature, in this case, a war dance.

I confess, I have a predilection for the cha cha myself

 

[Lakon]

"Compasionate killing" is a contradiction in terms.

Well, it was told to me earlier that Samurais do it. Then we have 'honour killings'of the Arabs, 'kill 'em and let God sort them out' of the Christian fundementalists, etc.

 

[(Q)]

I hate to say it, but I kind of agree. I feel the need to attack atheism, with words and ideas.

And yet, all we see is pure nonsense and delusion.

Just the ability to point to holes in the scientific dogma is a victory for me.

You've done no such thing, in fact, you are a hypocrite for using everything science has provided for you. Why aren't you living in a cave?

I know that it aggravates them that I beat them over the head with these shortcomings.

Sorry, but laughing hysterically at your nonsense is not aggravating in the least.

It's partly because I am defending my beliefs that they've trampled, partly because I want science to unlock the BIG secrets to the laws of physics. But deep down I feel like I am participating in some dance of nature, in this case, a war dance.

Yes, your religious beliefs have taught you to cause conflict in the world and create wars, to fight everyone with nonsense and delusion.

 

[wynn]

Well, it was told to me earlier that Samurais do it.

We could probably say that cutting someone's head off with a quick blow with a sharp sword is more "compassionate" than throwing someone into a river full of piranhas ...

But beyond that, killing is never compassionate.

Then we have 'honour killings'of the Arabs, 'kill 'em and let God sort them out' of the Christian fundementalists, etc.

What has that got to do with compassion?

If your head was to be cut off, or if you were to be thrown into a river full of piranhas, or were to be impaled or burnt at the stakes -- would you feel like you are the recipient of a compassionate act?
Would you thank your killers?

 

[Yazata]

I'm not calling the experience stupid, I'm objecting to a certain lack of humility about it, which can seem to be an expression of ego.

I'm inclined to skepticism when people start boasting of being enlightened. Boasting of being enlightened isn't something that I picture an enlightened person doing. I don't imagine an enlightened person being boastful at all. There's no need for them to be.

That in turn makes me kind of skeptical about the sort of spiritual teachers that advertise themselves in the glossy magazines.

It reminds me of that old proverb: Those who speak don't know. Those who know don't speak.

It's been my experience that enlightenment is far more interesting than simply "something that makes you happy".

There is a lot of foolishness surrounding it, a mystique, if you will.

Enlightenment isn't about maximizing pleasure.

Our constant need to stimulate ourselves with pleasures kind of defines not being enlightened.

 

[elte]

Alas, your journey has then led you down a blind alley. Competition is inherit in all life forms. Theory Of Evolution and all that .. survival of the fittest (strongest).

That may only apply to life on earth, so far as we know at this time. Humans are able to override nature, and have gotten better at it over time. It is the human ability to suppress the competitive drive within individuals that enables the species to survive. Cooperation is essential for the survival of humanity, while it could, with determination and luck, figure out how to eliminate competition against its individuals, and do just fine.

Too severe. It's nature. The life force which you've been given by nature is essentially competitive.

Life force is a term of religious faith. Nature is responsible for DNA and material substances in life.

You've contradicted yourself. With what other means are you going to compete on an internet forum other than ideas ?

How is that a contradiction? The ideas may be competing, but often the there is emotion conveyed in the writing that shows the person competing against another person. Attacks against a person can be mental or physical.

You haven't come live boxing via internet or something, have you ?

Wondering what you mean...

A very bad, and wrong determination. Nature again, has got it just right.

Your determinations are pretty bad and wrong, so you haven't room to talk. Only if we consider that we are part of nature, and we have no will of our own at all, is nature always right.

Imagine if we DID cure, or even mitigate, pests, diseases, hunger, ignorance, war .. have you then contemplated the consequeces for 7.3 billion healthy, happy, human beings ?

You're sounding like a sadist (again).

What's the first thing they're going to do ?

Rejoice?

On a different note, you've been on ignore for months because of writing little or nothing worthy of reading. It all began with your mocking an unfortunate family in Russia. You might get away with being jerky in other people's conversations, but I have come to hate bullying and so am unwilling to put up with it.