England in Disarray amid White Nationalist Race Riot

[Tiassa]

So … England … You Doin' Okay, There, Buddy?

Pick something, start anywhere. What a mess.

Summary for Americans. As near as we can tell from our side of The Pond, here's the situation: A seventeen year-old born in Wales stabbed three girls, including an immigrant, at a dance studio in Meresyside. Right-wing activists spread the rumor that a Muslim immigrant was to blame, raising racist outrage including riots, assaults, rapes, at least one police station set on fire, and an attempt to burn down a building while trapping people inside. Tommy Robinson, a.k.a., Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a rightist hooligan of extraordinary credential, fled the country on Sunday night, running from the High Court, but continues to stoke violence from a luxury resort in Cyprus. Elon Musk, boss of the social media site formerly known as Twitter, has declared that civil war is inevitable.

Punch line. An editor for The Economist, Shashank Joshi↱ comments, "Relishing the moment in which a lot of people are going to learn about phone location data and how it works."

In particular. Maybe for the shirtless teenager boosting sausage rolls from Greggs, or the shopaholic with the georgecross shirt on camera at multiple stores, or even the Liverpool assailants already identified by crowdsource, sure, there's a bit of a surprise coming. Or not. When the thrill wears off, the rioters have to now they were on camera.

But this is also something we saw in the U.S., during and after the Wednesday Putsch.

Americans can be very sensitive, sometimes, about personal information. Behaviorally, it doesn't always make sense, but the same people who say no to a national firearm registry, or who get upset if their doctors ask household health questions, and will occasionally tell you about the tracking devices in paper currency, were also perfectly willing to hand over surveillance permission to the private sector.

It's not just that they photographed themselves, or recorded video with their phones. Proud Boy leader Enrique Tarrio actually confessed in front of a film crew because he couldn't figure out it might not be a good job to have professionals on hand to film him committing and plotting felonies.

But then we saw the compiled phone data, where we could watch the insurgents moving around. We know where this or that person was at this or that moment, and in many cases you can take the phone data, go look for video from this or that camera at a given time, and match the suspect to the phone. That is, the tinfoils literally signed away their privacy to businesses, and the government got the data from those companies.¹

Someone suggested five years for the Greggs sausage roll guy, but that seems stiff compared to Crabbe's two years for violent disorder. Compared to the four and five-year sentences given environmentalists on a conference call, though, one might expect the people taking part in arson and attempted murder at Tamworth and Rothenham have some nervous days ahead.
____________________

Notes:

¹ Note for internationals: Yep, it's that easy. Sometimes, if prosecutors need the info from you, maybe they can't get a warrant. But if your favorite social media apps all have your data, the rules are different, and it's a lot easier to get a warrant to retrieve the data from the software company.​

@shashj. "Relishing the moment in which a lot of people are going to learn about phone location data and how it works." X. 4 August 2024. X.com. 5 August 2024. https://x.com/shashj/status/1820118242578342338

 

[exchemist]

So … England … You Doin' Okay, There, Buddy?

Pick something, start anywhere. What a mess.

Summary for Americans. As near as we can tell from our side of The Pond, here's the situation: A seventeen year-old born in Wales stabbed three girls, including an immigrant, at a dance studio in Meresyside. Right-wing activists spread the rumor that a Muslim immigrant was to blame, raising racist outrage including riots, assaults, rapes, at least one police station set on fire, and an attempt to burn down a building while trapping people inside. Tommy Robinson, a.k.a., Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a rightist hooligan of extraordinary credential, fled the country on Sunday night, running from the High Court, but continues to stoke violence from a luxury resort in Cyprus. Elon Musk, boss of the social media site formerly known as Twitter, has declared that civil war is inevitable.

Punch line. An editor for The Economist, Shashank Joshi↱ comments, "Relishing the moment in which a lot of people are going to learn about phone location data and how it works."

In particular. Maybe for the shirtless teenager boosting sausage rolls from Greggs, or the shopaholic with the georgecross shirt on camera at multiple stores, or even the Liverpool assailants already identified by crowdsource, sure, there's a bit of a surprise coming. Or not. When the thrill wears off, the rioters have to now they were on camera.

But this is also something we saw in the U.S., during and after the Wednesday Putsch.

Americans can be very sensitive, sometimes, about personal information. Behaviorally, it doesn't always make sense, but the same people who say no to a national firearm registry, or who get upset if their doctors ask household health questions, and will occasionally tell you about the tracking devices in paper currency, were also perfectly willing to hand over surveillance permission to the private sector.

It's not just that they photographed themselves, or recorded video with their phones. Proud Boy leader Enrique Tarrio actually confessed in front of a film crew because he couldn't figure out it might not be a good job to have professionals on hand to film him committing and plotting felonies.

But then we saw the compiled phone data, where we could watch the insurgents moving around. We know where this or that person was at this or that moment, and in many cases you can take the phone data, go look for video from this or that camera at a given time, and match the suspect to the phone. That is, the tinfoils literally signed away their privacy to businesses, and the government got the data from those companies.¹

Someone suggested five years for the Greggs sausage roll guy, but that seems stiff compared to Crabbe's two years for violent disorder. Compared to the four and five-year sentences given environmentalists on a conference call, though, one might expect the people taking part in arson and attempted murder at Tamworth and Rothenham have some nervous days ahead.
____________________

Notes:

¹ Note for internationals: Yep, it's that easy. Sometimes, if prosecutors need the info from you, maybe they can't get a warrant. But if your favorite social media apps all have your data, the rules are different, and it's a lot easier to get a warrant to retrieve the data from the software company.​

@shashj. "Relishing the moment in which a lot of people are going to learn about phone location data and how it works." X. 4 August 2024. X.com. 5 August 2024. https://x.com/shashj/status/1820118242578342338

We have had a government for the last decade that has pandered to anti-immigrant sentiment and in the last 2 years in particular has sought to inflame it by making a political slogan out of "stop the boats", to make party-political capital out of the issue. So it's not a surprise we get blowback now.

While the English Defence League was formally disbanded a decade or so ago, the extremists have learnt from Al Qaeda that one can still cause trouble via groups assembled informally via social media, under the general guidance of leaders who give them the ideas but do not manage the execution.

Interesting that Musk has made an absurd and irresponsible claim of civil war. The mask seems to have slipped. We've had summer riots before, last time in 2011. He's talking out of his fascist (S. African white supremacist?) arse.

 

[Pinball1970]

So … England … You Doin' Okay, There, Buddy?

No we're not, fancy stepping in? It worked fine in the 1940s. Kicked those Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

 

[exchemist]

No we're not, fancy stepping in? It worked fine in the 1940s. Kicked those Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

I disagree. All it needs is prompt police work and prosecution, as we did in 2011. The worst thing of all is to hype these riots with talk of civil war, bringing the army or recalling parliament. None of that is justified and it would reek of panic. Just arrest the fuckers, convict them speedily and treat them like football hooligans. They are the same people, in many instances.

And then set the intelligence services on the on-line chat groups. That method has been highly successful at controlling Islamic terrorism and it ought to work here too.

 

[Pinball1970]

I disagree. All it needs is prompt police work and prosecution,

It was tongue in cheek.

 

[Pinball1970]

Interesting that Musk has made an absurd and irresponsible claim of civil war. The mask seems to have slipped

I did not know this, what a fucking idiot. He should keep his damn nose out of our business and stick to rockets.

We have had this before and it will happen again. We will get through it and thugs will either get bored or get arrested.

 

[exchemist]

I did not know this, what a fucking idiot. He should keep his damn nose out of our business and stick to rockets.

We have had this before and it will happen again. We will get through it and thugs will either get bored or get arrested.

Or it will rain. Nobody ever riots in the rain.

 

[Pinball1970]

Pick something, start anywhere. What a mess.

This started because of those three girls being killed in Southport.

We should have immediately organised a country wide vigil, like we did for the kids at the M.E.N.
No violence as I recall after that, just a rock concert and coming together.

 

[Pinball1970]

Or it will rain. Nobody ever riots in the rain.

You read my mind!

We cannot post on physics forums anything to do with politics but I wanted to post exactly that.

Rioting in the UK is seasonal.

Summer hols, gives them something to do.

Gets them outside for once. Off the pc and social media.

They get to meet new people.

 

[TheVat]

I suppose it saves money on lodging, if you get arrested. Could be the next travel fad for the budget-minded tourist?

 

[C C]

On the positive side, this orgy of violence should stimulate implementation of new polices that will protect and promote Muslim advancement for the now circa 1,400,000 followers of Islam in London, and help steady the overall cultural transition in the UK.

As well as the ensuing guilt trip over these horrors certainly enhancing official acceptance of "irregular migrants" (whether refugee status or path to citizenship).

Irregular migration to the UK, year ending March 2024

Irregular migration to the UK, year ending March 2024

www.gov.uk

Additional statistics relating to Illegal Migration (April 2024)

Additional statistics relating to Illegal Migration (April 2024)

www.gov.uk

_

 

[Tiassa]

No we're not, fancy stepping in? It worked fine in the 1940s. Kicked those Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

A funny thing happened on the way to the Palladium.

Spoiler

Matt Bors, 2017​

"Is punching a Nazi okay?"↗ some asked, but this isn't the same thing as dropping Richard Spencer because he was there. I may not be able to to walk each Nazi around town by the hand in order to explain to all the otherwise decent people that he really does have the right to depict himself as such, but if he's rioting and setting fire to the town and attempting mass murder, it's more a tactical decision than moral argument.

Sometime in between, about three years ago↗, I had occasion to observe: Pretenses of ignorance somehow integral to facilitating discussion are not exactly uncommon in American society, and at some point we must acknowledge that making excuses for that sort of behavior is part of how we arrive here.

I also wrote:

• Not quite twenty years ago, someone pointed out that the Bush administration's behavior could be seen as similar to something infamous a Nazi once described, and suddenly Dennis Miller couldn't be liberal anymore, and became a conservative, because you just don't say that. Fifteen years is fifteen years, I suppose, but he didn't quite make it that long before Nazis openly crawled out of conservative woodwork.

Not a funny story: I come from a time and place when figurative language was brutal, and it's true what drives contemporary shock and horror is actually a more traditionalist pretense; it's not so different from the idea of standing up to a bully, which is what we teach in questions of white on white and boys being boys, but as soon as minorities or women stand up, well, don'cha know violence is always wrong, m'kay. And, sure, that's a simplification, but still, consider the world in which that unfortunately requisite disclaimer is necessary. Something goes here about what people understand. Still, take the band Anthrax. They're great for talking back to old-school, supremacist machismo. But think, these days, of how a line like, "Cold sweat, my fists are clenching! Stomp! Stomp! Stomp! The Idiot's Convention!" ("Caught in a Mosh" [1987]↱) might go over. Or, "You separatists say you want your own state? I'll give them a state, a state of unconsciousness!" ("Keep It in the Family" [1990]↱) There's even one that runs, "Cheering for your demise! Starting tonight, people will die!" ("Earth on Hell" [2011]↱) Context, of course, is everything, but my actual point is that as we watch this ouroboros go 'round and 'round, it's always somebody else's fault. And I think of anti-feminists, or an unfortunate joke about how American Nazis feel bullied into becoming Nazis↱, also called blaming the penguin↱. (I happened to seethe about this↗ several months ago.) Oh, right, story time. Yeah, it's not funny, because it's true, we just don't do certain stuff to people, but conservatives will eventually blame liberals for not suppressing them, and some rightist somewhere will come right out and say it, that it's everyone else's fault for not curbstomping them.​

Irony is what it is. If a someone who happens to be a Crown subject once asked about the possibility of a new American civil war, whatever. But the overlap between then and now stands out. What I said two years ago↗ is now pretty much the question facing the British:

• How hard do the proverbial good guys play? At some point, some others are simply determined to obligate the one. How often, when one complains that "both sides" do something, do they also complain when one of the sides doesn't?

But we're also talking about civil war. Think about curbstomping a Nazi. Maybe you would never, and if you wonder whether I would, that's the thing, I don't really know the threshold. The basic quandary is pretty straightforward: It should never come to that. Okay, but curbstomping? Well, it's not like I go around packing heat. Should I? I honestly don't think it should come to that, speak nothing of actually finding reason to shoot at someone. And if my bootheel is what I happen to have at hand when a Nazi crosses that threshold, then ... wait, what threshold?

Well, that's the thing: In the moment when the rightists start shooting, what are you—... well, right. But if the options are to flee, beg, appease, or otherwise hope they don't shoot you, there is also a question of fighting back.

It's kind of hard to imagine the circumstance in which I might end the life of a political opponent; the flip-side is that we already have an idea of how far some of these people will go.​

Anyway, yeah a funny thing happened on―… oh, right. It's not funny. I also said we already know from a generation of rhetorical escalation that it is impossible to concede enough to these people. Appeasement just doesn't work.

And, yet, for whatever reason, people started feeling sorry for Nazis. Oh, wait, did I say they started feeling sorry? Mostly, they just stopped keeping it to themselves.

†​

There are hopeful scenes. In Middlesbrough↱, the nervous Muslim community turned out to support police with tea and biscuits. At Stoke on Trent↱, local Muslims and supporters held ground and even chased away the rightist mob, resulting in delightful traffic-cam footage of hooligans running in fear. And Blackpool↱ was hilarious, when the rightists encountered a gaggle of punks in town for the Rebellion Festival.

(I felt old, several months ago, when a generational fellow recalled the phrase "anti-Nazi skinheads", but, yeah, I felt even older at Punk Rock & Bowling in Vegas, a couple months ago. What was actually astounding was the Turbojugend representation. In Vegas. Couldn't count all the chapters from around the States. Far side of the Pond? If the punks mobilize, pray for the rightists, or, at least, the National Health. I mean, sure, Brexit and all, so they'll just shut down entry, but if, like, the European TJ showed up to just have a pint and wait for a rightist to pick a fight, this would be over that quickly. Maybe an emergency Turbonegro show is the solution: How fast can a European band book a show and enter England, these days? They just need to bring everyone.)​

 

[Pinball1970]

A funny thing happened on the way to the Palladium.

​

​

Spoiler

Matt Bors, 2017​

​

​

"Is punching a Nazi okay?"↗ some asked, but this isn't the same thing as dropping Richard Spencer because he was there. I may not be able to to walk each Nazi around town by the hand in order to explain to all the otherwise decent people that he really does have the right to depict himself as such, but if he's rioting and setting fire to the town and attempting mass murder, it's more a tactical decision than moral argument.

Sometime in between, about three years ago↗, I had occasion to observe: Pretenses of ignorance somehow integral to facilitating discussion are not exactly uncommon in American society, and at some point we must acknowledge that making excuses for that sort of behavior is part of how we arrive here.

I also wrote:

• Not quite twenty years ago, someone pointed out that the Bush administration's behavior could be seen as similar to something infamous a Nazi once described, and suddenly Dennis Miller couldn't be liberal anymore, and became a conservative, because you just don't say that. Fifteen years is fifteen years, I suppose, but he didn't quite make it that long before Nazis openly crawled out of conservative woodwork.​

​

Not a funny story: I come from a time and place when figurative language was brutal, and it's true what drives contemporary shock and horror is actually a more traditionalist pretense; it's not so different from the idea of standing up to a bully, which is what we teach in questions of white on white and boys being boys, but as soon as minorities or women stand up, well, don'cha know violence is always wrong, m'kay. And, sure, that's a simplification, but still, consider the world in which that unfortunately requisite disclaimer is necessary. Something goes here about what people understand. Still, take the band Anthrax. They're great for talking back to old-school, supremacist machismo. But think, these days, of how a line like, "Cold sweat, my fists are clenching! Stomp! Stomp! Stomp! The Idiot's Convention!" ("Caught in a Mosh" [1987]↱) might go over. Or, "You separatists say you want your own state? I'll give them a state, a state of unconsciousness!" ("Keep It in the Family" [1990]↱) There's even one that runs, "Cheering for your demise! Starting tonight, people will die!" ("Earth on Hell" [2011]↱) Context, of course, is everything, but my actual point is that as we watch this ouroboros go 'round and 'round, it's always somebody else's fault. And I think of anti-feminists, or an unfortunate joke about how American Nazis feel bullied into becoming Nazis↱, also called blaming the penguin↱. (I happened to seethe about this↗ several months ago.) Oh, right, story time. Yeah, it's not funny, because it's true, we just don't do certain stuff to people, but conservatives will eventually blame liberals for not suppressing them, and some rightist somewhere will come right out and say it, that it's everyone else's fault for not curbstomping them.​

Irony is what it is. If a someone who happens to be a Crown subject once asked about the possibility of a new American civil war, whatever. But the overlap between then and now stands out. What I said two years ago↗ is now pretty much the question facing the British:

• How hard do the proverbial good guys play? At some point, some others are simply determined to obligate the one. How often, when one complains that "both sides" do something, do they also complain when one of the sides doesn't?​

​

But we're also talking about civil war. Think about curbstomping a Nazi. Maybe you would never, and if you wonder whether I would, that's the thing, I don't really know the threshold. The basic quandary is pretty straightforward: It should never come to that. Okay, but curbstomping? Well, it's not like I go around packing heat. Should I? I honestly don't think it should come to that, speak nothing of actually finding reason to shoot at someone. And if my bootheel is what I happen to have at hand when a Nazi crosses that threshold, then ... wait, what threshold?​

​

Well, that's the thing: In the moment when the rightists start shooting, what are you—... well, right. But if the options are to flee, beg, appease, or otherwise hope they don't shoot you, there is also a question of fighting back.​

​

It's kind of hard to imagine the circumstance in which I might end the life of a political opponent; the flip-side is that we already have an idea of how far some of these people will go.​

Anyway, yeah a funny thing happened on―… oh, right. It's not funny. I also said we already know from a generation of rhetorical escalation that it is impossible to concede enough to these people. Appeasement just doesn't work.

And, yet, for whatever reason, people started feeling sorry for Nazis. Oh, wait, did I say they started feeling sorry? Mostly, they just stopped keeping it to themselves.

†​

There are hopeful scenes. In Middlesbrough↱, the nervous Muslim community turned out to support police with tea and biscuits. At Stoke on Trent↱, local Muslims and supporters held ground and even chased away the rightist mob, resulting in delightful traffic-cam footage of hooligans running in fear. And Blackpool↱ was hilarious, when the rightists encountered a gaggle of punks in town for the Rebellion Festival.

(I felt old, several months ago, when a generational fellow recalled the phrase "anti-Nazi skinheads", but, yeah, I felt even older at Punk Rock & Bowling in Vegas, a couple months ago. What was actually astounding was the Turbojugend representation. In Vegas. Couldn't count all the chapters from around the States. Far side of the Pond? If the punks mobilize, pray for the rightists, or, at least, the National Health. I mean, sure, Brexit and all, so they'll just shut down entry, but if, like, the European TJ showed up to just have a pint and wait for a rightist to pick a fight, this would be over that quickly. Maybe an emergency Turbonegro show is the solution: How fast can a European band book a show and enter England, these days? They just need to bring everyone.)​

I'm British.

A few more days of this then our services will go in hard.

 

[Tiassa]

Massive Attack

English pop music icons Massive Attack↱ released a statement Sunday:

This violent racism has long been simmering under the surface. What is happening is the direct result of years of normalised racism and Islamaphobia, enabled by politicians and the British media.

As far-right mobs threaten mosques, ntimidate and harass people, and throw Nazi salutes, we offer our utmost solidarity to people of colour, and Muslim communities in particular.

Even in their responses to this violence, our Prime Minister and Home Secretary fail to centre Muslim people, or call out racism for what it is. What we are seeing unfold is more than "thuggery", it is violent racism. This is an inevitable outcome of years of state sponsored islamophobia and racism, where Muslims, people of colour and migrants are scapegoated as a distraction from decades of economic hardship and political failings.

We demand political leadership that recognises that challenging the far right is not simply a question of tackling online misinformation, or increased police surveillance. Instead, we urgently need our leaders to challenge the conditions that embolden the far right. These scenes should be unimaginable in 2024.​

On Monday, the band issued a call↱ for public demonstrations, a "national day of protest" to "stop the far right" in "every town and city", this coming weekend.

Take care of yourselves, take care of each other. Live through this.

Find peace, that someday there might be a dissertation called, Taxes and Sausage Rolls: Race Riots in English History and Tradition, from Clifford Tower to Holiday Inn Express.

Spoiler

 

[sculptor]

when the politicians have lost touch with the citizens: .................

 

[exchemist]

when the politicians have lost touch with the citizens: .................

That is not the cause. The problem is politicians stoking resentment and division for political advantage, and failing to act on warnings from the security services.

 

[exchemist]

I suppose it saves money on lodging, if you get arrested. Could be the next travel fad for the budget-minded tourist?

The ideal place to incarcerate them would be the Bibby Stockholm.

 

[Sarkus]

The ideal place to incarcerate them would be the Bibby Stockholm.

For some reason I read that as "incinerate" and was like "woah, exchemist has had enough!!"

Interestingly I'm at Magistrates court today, and our locale has demonstrations planned for this evening... so they're gearing up for a busy rest of the week! We've avoided anything newsworthy so far, but have an anti-immigration protest planned in the city this evening, with an anti-racism counter-protest to be held nearby. With all the hatred being stoked up online, what could possibly go wrong.

 

[exchemist]

For some reason I read that as "incinerate" and was like "woah, exchemist has had enough!!"

Interestingly I'm at Magistrates court today, and our locale has demonstrations planned for this evening... so they're gearing up for a busy rest of the week! We've avoided anything newsworthy so far, but have an anti-immigration protest planned in the city this evening, with an anti-racism counter-protest to be held nearby. With all the hatred being stoked up online, what could possibly go wrong.

Hmm. I think Starmer is dead right that the way to put a lid on this is by very swift and severe prison sentences, publicised as fully as possible.

But I was pleased to hear on the radio that the police apparently agree with my point about the weather. A few rainy days and this will all stop. What’s the forecast where you are?

 

[Sarkus]

<20% chance of rain at the moment for a couple of hours (actually 100% where I am, but very fine/light rain), and then same at around 8-9pm. So unfortunately nothing that would stop boozed-up protestors from getting over-zealous. I actually live in a neighbouring town/civil parish about a mile outside the city-proper, and about 4 miles from the actual demonstration location, so won't hear nor see anything other than what makes the local (let's hope not national!!) news.