Electric cars are a pipe dream

Electric cars=no solution

I say this is a possibility, if we could use nuclear power. But not too profitable for our government, plus
a little dangerous to play with it! But what a ride for a little piece, you'd need to change the battery once
every 20 years!
Like you said, dream on....
 
heytogi said:
I say this is a possibility, if we could use nuclear power. But not too profitable for our government, plus
a little dangerous to play with it! But what a ride for a little piece, you'd need to change the battery once
every 20 years! ....
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Wrong on two counts: (1) the battery life does not depend on what is the source of electric power used to charge it - that depends upon the number of deep discharge cycles, mainly. - the type even hybrid EVs typically make.
(2) any adequately shielded for humans to be near nuclear reactor would weigh more than 5 times more that cars do. It was quite a technological accomplishment to reduce them in size and weight so they could power submarines - and that was possible only by enriching the U235 percent to more than twice what a water moderated power plant requires - much more costly fuel as cost of enrichment increases faster than linearly with the percentage enrichment.
 
Billy T said:
Wrong on two counts: (1) the battery life does not depend on what is the source of electric power used to charge it - that depends upon the number of deep discharge cycles, mainly. - the type even hybrid EVs typically make.
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I think he was talking about a nuclear "battery" not an electro-chemical one.
Billy T said:
(2) any adequately shielded for humans to be near nuclear reactor would weigh more than 5 times more that cars do. It was quite a technological accomplishment to reduce them in size and weight so they could power submarines - and that was possible only by enriching the U235 percent to more than twice what a water moderated power plant requires - much more costly fuel as cost of enrichment increases faster than linearly with the percentage enrichment.
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There has been a recent claim that a new technology can produce electricity from nuclear reactions with little need for shielding. It doesn't use fission/neutrons but some sort of laser induced alpha decay, IIRC. You can shield alpha with tinfoil.
I don't think the purported technology has been demonstrated yet.
 
Non-battery electric looks better now:
Toyota has also announced a new hydrogen fuel cell-powered car that it will sell in 2015. The concept car runs on a Lexus HS body and is powered by a "stack" that fits under the front seat.

Consumer Reports liked it: "On the road, the FCV, enclosed in a Lexus HS body, felt just like any electric car. It showed an abundance of effortless power right out of the gate and a quiet glide throughout. Maximum speed is 100 mph. The ride is compliant and typically Toyota unobtrusive. Handling is reminiscent of a Prius or Lexus HS, which means it's a bit mundane and uninviting. But here's the thing: It takes just 3 to 5 minutes to fuel up and give the car a 300-mile driving range, according to Toyota. No battery-electric car can come remotely close to that.

Fuel cell vehicles are electric cars that use a fuel cell, which produces its own electricity, instead of battery-stored electricity. A chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen from the atmosphere produces the electricity needed to spin the vehicle's electric drive motor. Manufacturers the world over have been working on this technology for more than 20 years but cost and the lack of infrastructure have been major obstacles."

Back in 2007, Toyota came out with a Highlander fuel cell hybrid vehicle. It could go over 300 miles on a tank of compressed hydrogen, but it cost more than a million dollars a vehicle. In contrast, the new Toyota FC will cost just $50,000 to make. That's a 95% reduction in cost in just seven years and without economies of scale, which means they are only going to get cheaper.

The new fuel cell stack is one-third the size of the old one and produces twice the energy. It can be refueled in three to five minutes. Fuel cells also benefit from producing only water and oxygen in exhaust. This will go far in helping to meet the new California zero-emissions laws.
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Need more details on how the H2 will be stored.
 
I apologise for not reading the thread, and you can yell at me if it's been covered, but how practical would solar panels be if they were fitted to the roof? I'm think ME and N Africa, maybe California. Worst case they could save petrol by powering the aircon, and charge the batteries while parked. Shouldn't add much if anything to the weight and free once installed. Not a game changer but a help.
 
I think I could do okay with a car that had solar panels on the roof because I drive unoften and short range, and having a small, light weight car would be okay for me. The batteries wouldn't drain very much and have a lot of time to charge up between uses.
 
elte said:
I think I could do okay with a car that had solar panels on the roof because I drive unoften and short range, and having a small, light weight car would be okay for me. The batteries wouldn't drain very much and have a lot of time to charge up between uses.
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With very un-usually low* annual energy requirement, that might some day be more economical than plugging in to the power line while you sleep but probably not yet.

* I'm too lazy to compute, but guess that when car is not used for a few sunny days and the battery is fully charged up that solar enery colleted is not stored, so in the annual energy collection can not be counted. Like wise when car is in low sun (certainly more than 12 hours per day, the self discharge energy loss should be subtracted form the annual amount of energy collected. So I'll guess that a car roof (1.5meter squared at best) will collect annually the energy, which can later be used to drive the car equal to the energy content of ~ 30 gallons of gasoline or is worth at most $100. If you invested at 5% gain, $2000 you would earn that $100. So unless the cost of the 1.5meter squared solar cell is less than $2000, you are losing money - would have been better to just buy $100 of gasoline per year. I.e. the low rate of car use, cuts both ways. Your main economic loss is in the capital tied up in the car - not earning any interest.

So to really come out way ahead don't own a car - use taxi for the limited car travel you do.
 
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Billy T said:
With very un-usually low* annual energy requirement, that might some day be more economical than plugging in to the power line while you sleep.

* I'm too lazy to compute, but guess that when car is not used for a few sunny days and the battery is fully charged up that solar enery colleted is not stored, so in the annual energy collection can not be counted. Like wise when car is in low sun (certainly more than 12 hours per day, the self discharge energy loss should be subtracted form the annual amount of energy collected. So I'll guess that a car roof (1.5meter squared at best) will collect annually the energy, which can later be used to drive the cat equal to the energy content of ~ 30 gallons of gasoline or is worth at most $100. If you invested at 5% gain, $2000 you would earn that $100. So unless the cost of the 1.5meter squared solar cell is less than $2000, you are losing money - would have been better to just buy $100 of gasoline per year. I.e. the low rate of car use, cuts both ways.

To really come out way ahead use taxi for the limited car travel you do.
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A type of electric car like I would want should be simpler than a similar gasoline version because engines need so much emissions control and they're also just much more mechanically complex than an electric motor. The maintenance should be overall less and easier to self-do on a simple electric. Never felt comfortable about taxis though.:bugeye:
 
Billy T said:
With very un-usually low* annual energy requirement, that might some day be more economical than plugging in to the power line while you sleep but probably not yet.

* I'm too lazy to compute, but guess that when car is not used for a few sunny days and the battery is fully charged up that solar enery colleted is not stored, so in the annual energy collection can not be counted. Like wise when car is in low sun (certainly more than 12 hours per day, the self discharge energy loss should be subtracted form the annual amount of energy collected. So I'll guess that a car roof (1.5meter squared at best) will collect annually the energy, which can later be used to drive the car equal to the energy content of ~ 30 gallons of gasoline or is worth at most $100. If you invested at 5% gain, $2000 you would earn that $100. So unless the cost of the 1.5meter squared solar cell is less than $2000, you are losing money - would have been better to just buy $100 of gasoline per year. I.e. the low rate of car use, cuts both ways. Your main economic loss is in the capital tied up in the car - not earning any interest.

So to really come out way ahead don't own a car - use taxi for the limited car travel you do.
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What would the unit cost of the roof be if the volume went up to say 10 million units a year? Much less or not? And then there are the environmental issues of petrol (gasoline) versus clean energy.
 
elte said:
A type of electric car like I would want should be simpler than a similar gasoline version because engines need so much emissions control and they're also just much more mechanically complex than an electric motor. The maintenance should be overall less and easier to self-do on a simple electric. Never felt comfortable about taxis though.:bugeye:
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Why do you even want a battery powered car? You do so little driving that your contribution to CO2 release is small - plant a couple of trees to off set it. Problem is if your don't have all that IC engine complexity, I. e. the car only runs only on battery power, the batteries need to be sized for the longest trip you plan to ever make - they are costly.

How much do you pay for car insurance and licence fees annually? I bet that would pay for quite a few short taxi trips. (A bike is even cheaper and better for your health.)
 
Billy T said:
Why do you even want a battery powered car? You do so little driving that your contribution to CO2 release is small - plant a couple of trees to off set it. Problem is if your don't have all that IC engine complexity, I. e. the car only runs only on battery power, the batteries need to be sized for the longest trip you plan to ever make - they are costly.

How much do you pay for car insurance and licence fees annually? I bet that would pay for quite a few short taxi trips. (A bike is even cheaper and better for your health.)
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My longest rare trip is just about ten miles, and usually under five, and IC engines are also costly, and costly to maintain. Sorry, I don't like taxis or buses, including waiting for them.
 
elte said:
My longest rare trip is just about ten miles, and usually under five, and IC engines are also costly, and costly to maintain. Sorry, I don't like taxis or buses, including waiting for them.
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Perhaps you can cut a deal with seller of the all electric car to save a more than $1000 by tell him to keep ~85% of the batteries it normally comes with. If you do, plan on never selling it as few buyers would be interested in that very limited range vehicle.
 
Billy T said:
Perhaps you can cut a deal with seller of the all electric car to save a more than $1000 by tell him to keep ~85% of the batteries it normally comes with. If you do, plan on never selling it as few buyers would be interested in that very limited range vehicle.
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I can only afford used cars and then use them until they are toast. It might be cool if I could buy a used electric and put my own batteries in it. :)
 
Electric cars you can buy today have up to 250 mile range. If charged by wind or sun they have no continuing carbon footprint. They currently cost about twice what a normal car would cost up front, but they can be fueled for nothing, or very little(if charged on offpeak hours the "fillup" can cost you less than $2.00)and gives you 250 miles. This is due to the efficiency that is 2-3 times that of gasoline engines and an energy source much cheaper than the $3.50 per gallon we are currently paying. Let's see you move a normal car at less than one cent per mile traveled.
 
Grumpy said:
Electric cars you can buy today have up to 250 mile range. If charged by wind or sun they have no continuing carbon footprint. They currently cost about twice what a normal car would cost up front, but they can be fueled for nothing, or very little(if charged on offpeak hours the "fillup" can cost you less than $2.00)and gives you 250 miles. This is due to the efficiency that is 2-3 times that of gasoline engines and an energy source much cheaper than the $3.50 per gallon we are currently paying. Let's see you move a normal car at less than one cent per mile traveled.
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I keep wanting to buy myself something like a Vespa, rip the guts out of it, replace the motor with an equivalently sized electric one and set up a solar recharging station with the panels on the roof of my garage.
 
Sorcerer said:
I apologise for not reading the thread, and you can yell at me if it's been covered, but how practical would solar panels be if they were fitted to the roof? I'm think ME and N Africa, maybe California. Worst case they could save petrol by powering the aircon, and charge the batteries while parked. Shouldn't add much if anything to the weight and free once installed. Not a game changer but a help.
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You might be able to run the fan with them, and maybe the power steering pump, things on that order. ;)
 
Trippy said:
I keep wanting to buy myself something like a Vespa, rip the guts out of it, replace the motor with an equivalently sized electric one and set up a solar recharging station with the panels on the roof of my garage.
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You can buy equivalent vehicles on the market today. Wish granted!
 
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