Does the ends ever justify the means?

Here's one: what if your time traveling humanitarian could kill the people key to rapid development of nukes, and slowed things down so that political and social institutions could have time to process the consequences of a planet that has such devices? Would there have been a resulting ban? Would we have been spared the Sword of Damocles over all our heads? Or would this happiness be marred by no Pax Americana and a plethora of wars all over?
 
Here's one: what if your time traveling humanitarian could kill the people key to rapid development of nukes, and slowed things down so that political and social institutions could have time to process the consequences of a planet that has such devices? Would there have been a resulting ban? Would we have been spared the Sword of Damocles over all our heads? Or would this happiness be marred by no Pax Americana and a plethora of wars all over?
This was essentially the meaning behind the penny farthing bicycle used in The Prisoner: Technology accelerates faster than our ability to grapple with the implications for such.
 
This was essentially the meaning behind the penny farthing bicycle used in The Prisoner: Technology accelerates faster than our ability to grapple with the implications for such.
OMG that's a clever allusion. And yes, it always come at us like we're in a wind tunnel. So my nuclear trolley scenario could easily have jumped tracks to chem-bio warfare instead. We could be nuke free but also everyone is gray goop melting into the ground. :biggrin:
 
Thread seems like the trolley problem, at the level of statecraft. I'd say if the Intel is solid, one can act to protect innocent lives, or ecosystems which sustain innocent lives. Stop Oswald on the sixth floor of the TX schoolbook depository and that's a little iffy. Maybe you save a million lives and the ecosystems across large areas of Vietnam...or something worse happens? That's an example of an information-poor fork in the road of history. OTOH, well, clear-cut examples are hard...is there much doubt the world would have been better sans Hitler or Stalin?
Нет, Теват, мир не был бы лучше без них. Про Сталина у нас хорошо сказал Сергей Довлатов:" Мы без конца проклинаем товарища Сталина, и, разумеется, за дело. И всё же я хочу спросить - кто написал 4 миллиона доносов?" Любой диктатор - это лишь верхушка айсберга, верхняя часть гнойника, который всё равно когда-нибудь прорвётся, и лучше раньше, чем позже.
 
Yep. The lamest philosophical conundrum ever devised, imho. No one ever in the history of the world has been entirely consistent with their deontological/consequentialist crap. You change just one teeny little factor, and the most ardent d-ist or c-ist ever is gonna abruptly change their mind. Problem solved.
Not lame at all. It underlies almost all decisions made by both governments and civilians.
 
Not lame at all. It underlies almost all decisions made by both governments and civilians.
И всегда все будут блюсти интересы собственной семьи, собственного племени, собственного народа. Никто(кроме больных на всю голову большевиков, и прочих фанатиков) не отнимет еду у собственных детей для того, чтобы отдать её папуасам на другом континенте.
 
Not lame at all. It underlies almost all decisions made by both governments and civilians.
With respect to practical usage, certainly. Said "lame(ness)" only pertains to it being a matter for philosophical consideration: It easily breaks down to the consequential and deontological components, and no one is ever wholly one or the other. It's not even Philosophy 101, it's more like pre-pre-Philosophy 101.
 
With respect to practical usage, certainly. Said "lame(ness)" only pertains to it being a matter for philosophical consideration: It easily breaks down to the consequential and deontological components, and no one is ever wholly one or the other. It's not even Philosophy 101, it's more like pre-pre-Philosophy 101.
Practical is what counts.
In many cases it involves deciding whether an action is lose/lose, zero sum, or win/win.

The rest is just philosophical masturbation.
 
Practical is what counts.
In many cases it involves deciding whether an action is lose/lose, zero sum, or win/win.

The rest is just philosophical masturbation.
... or it's one of the pillars upon which society exists, and continues to exist.

The "practical" is hardly all that counts, and, not unlike your insistence elsewhere that "woman" be defined as such-and-such, no ifs ands or buts, dismissing ambiguities and irresolvable conundrums doesn't actually make them go away. The trolley problem works best as an introduction to the idea the "correct answer" often comes down to perspective, disposition and inclination, and that's all it is. IOW there often isn't any such "correct answer", just myriad possibilities, some of which may work better for you under a very particular set of circumstances, and within a particular frame of mind.

So even if one were to pretend and continue to maintain that the "practical is what counts", one's conception of what constitutes the practical will be informed by hundreds, or thousands, of years of crap which is decidedly not practical, and even for, say, the most ordinary white guy in the West or in America, there will even be enormous variance with respect to how much of such is more, say, Enlightenment informed or Joyce's jewgreek informed. Even then, probably more commonality amongst the former than the latter, but still effectively all over the place with respect to what makes for the "practical".
 
... or it's one of the pillars upon which society exists, and continues to exist.

The "practical" is hardly all that counts, and, not unlike your insistence elsewhere that "woman" be defined as such-and-such, no ifs ands or buts, dismissing ambiguities and irresolvable conundrums doesn't actually make them go away. The trolley problem works best as an introduction to the idea the "correct answer" often comes down to perspective, disposition and inclination, and that's all it is. IOW there often isn't any such "correct answer", just myriad possibilities, some of which may work better for you under a very particular set of circumstances, and within a particular frame of mind.

So even if one were to pretend and continue to maintain that the "practical is what counts", one's conception of what constitutes the practical will be informed by hundreds, or thousands, of years of crap which is decidedly not practical, and even for, say, the most ordinary white guy in the West or in America, there will even be enormous variance with respect to how much of such is more, say, Enlightenment informed or Joyce's jewgreek informed. Even then, probably more commonality amongst the former than the latter, but still effectively all over the place with respect to what makes for the "practical".
You be philosophical and I'll be what I perceive as practical.
 
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