Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I was only ever aware of the possible three alternatives for the end of the universe scenario...Big Freeze, Big Crunch and the Big Rip....there are a couple more it seems.....Big Bounce and the Big Slurp.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#Big_Bounce
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, I agree as far as that goes, but that's not fundamental, IMO.
    What I see here is a mathematical description of the interaction of relational values in accordance with mathematical guiding equations. Which avoids the conflict of irreducible complexity. Simple.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And of these three which is the universal language and not a local phenomenon?
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Fundamental? We need to go back to space and time, or if you like spacetime, without which we wouldn't have a Universe.
     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    That's easy...English... it's everywhere..more so than math..I mean you go into the pub everyone is speaking English or a corrupted local version but no one is ever speaking math. Go over seas..English someplace..math nope.
    Alex
     
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I go for Big Rip which in essence is a version of Heat Death as I understand

    Perhaps a stage further. Heat Death appears to leave some particles intact with their kinetic energy (movement - speed of travel) intact

    Big Rip goes the extra step and atoms (particles?) are disintegrated

    So what happens when there are no particles (stuff) to have properties???

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  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Funny, I liked that to...it came about after the acceleration in the expansion rate was discovered
    Quantum foam? 0 degrees K?

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  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    And what happens when (if) the Universe reaches the Big Rip stage and there is nothing to measure? No energy difference = no interaction possible = no measurements = no math

    Complicated

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  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Well that's a relief you like like the Big Rip. I will sleep better tonight

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    If I understood what quantum foam consists of I probably would agree

    As I understand quantum foam is composed of fields of energy

    Which I would be happy with if Huey Dewey and Louie stopped asking me WHAT CONTAINS THE FIELDS?

    With no container to contain (doh) fields surely they would seep out to infinity trying (?) to fill a unfillable nothingness
    • And who is going to come alongt to
    • at least gather up a
    • portion of these fields
    • squeeze them together
    • make them hot again
    • ready to make another Big Bang?
    Coffee moment

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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No values, no mathematical processes, no universe, simple.
     
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Well we agree on that

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    NEXT

    What happened to all the ENERGY which us Minions (so trusting we are) have been told cannot be created, and important to this situation, cannot be destroyed?

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  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It could dissipate? This could explain why there can be no pure vacuum. There is always something, but may be so dilute it has no longer any dynamical impact. But in a dynamic permittive chaotic condition patterns like toroidal patterns may spontaneously form as per Chaos Theory.

    But is there a compelling reason why the Universe should need to persist as the Universe when it has evaporated. It may transform as it did when it was a "compressed singularity" and actually would confirm the proposition that the universe is expanding constantly until there is no longer spacetime, but just a permittive condition as was before the BB.

    However, if we want to model an eternal recycling of Universal energy into matter and back into energy we might consider a toroidal shaped universe.
    How about this?

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    Figure 3. An ant travels on a doughnut. From our perspective (left), the ant returns to where it started because the doughnut wraps around on itself. But from the ant’s perspective (right) it seems to walk in a straight path and eventually return to where it started.
    http://www.thephysicsmill.com/2015/10/31/the-cmb-axis-of-evil-and-the-nature-of-randomness/

    Afterthought; In a torus shaped Universe all this resolves into a continuous cycle of:
    1) a singularity at the center of the torus,
    2) the energy jet of unimaginable energetic power,
    3) expansion until passing the horizon,
    4) contraction toward the torus' center BH,
    5) formation of a singularity at the center of the torus
    6) energy jet starting the process all over again in a continuous cycle of expansion, contractions, and regeneration, etc, etc.

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    http://www.thephysicsmill.com/2015/10/31/the-cmb-axis-of-evil-and-the-nature-of-randomness/

    Has anybody ever written anything about what happens to that pure stream of unimaginable energy spouting continuously from the center of the universe? Does it spread out along the surface of the toroid spacetime and feed the next generation of universe or does it jet into a timeless void and just disappears, or is energy indestructible and continues to feed a recycling toroidal universe?

    This model would account for a continual recycling of an expanding and contracting spacetime, yet without need for an original BB, no? Moreover this is a self-contained cycle and allows for many such structures in the universe

    A baker's dozen doughnut shaped toroidal spacetime universes in a greater (infinite) permittive condition?
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Problem

    ENERGY is a PROPERTY of stuff. It has no physicality hence there is nothing to dissipate

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  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, didn't make that clear. I don't mean to say "dissipate" as in losing energy, that's a no no. I meant to say dissipate into an ever expanding space until the inherent energy has no longer any relational effect on empty space.

    But are you saying that stuff came before energy? What stuff created the energy of the BB? Or was it energy that acted energetically before it was stuff?

    I always understood that energy was a potential of a dynamic system? Potential, not energy is a property of stuff.

    Potential energy,
    physics
    WRITTEN BY; The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
    Encyclopaedia Britannica's editors oversee subject areas in which they have extensive knowledge, whether from years of experience gained by working on that content or via study for an advanced degree....

    See Article History

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    Examine how water held back by Egypt's Aswan High Dam turns turbines to generate electricityLearn about how potential energy and kinetic energy are harnessed to generate electricity through facilities such as the Aswan High Dam.Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.See all videos for this article

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    potential and kinetic energyPotential energy is stored energy, whereas kinetic energy is the energy of moving things.
    https://www.britannica.com/science/potential-energy

    Energy is not stuff. But energy can be compressed (opposite of dissipated) and if compressed into a singularity and subsequently released, IMO that is what was causal to the original BB inflationary epoch.
    That chronology seems the most logical to me....

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  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    While I am searching, this may be of interest:

    Where does energy come from? Where does energy go?
    Question: Is it the subatomic movement inside molecules that generate their energy?

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    So the short answer is that the energy we encounter and use everyday has always been with us since the beginning of the universe and always will be with us. It just changes form all around us. That is called the law of conservation of energy.

    http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/thermal/3-where-does-energy-come-from-and-go.html#

    Continuity equation

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    In the integral form of the continuity equation, S is any closed surface that fully encloses a volume V, like any of the surfaces on the left. S can not be a surface with boundaries, like those on the right. (Surfaces are blue, boundaries are red.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_equation
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    It comes down to the inescapable - you need stuff to store energy, and you need Kinect energy to push into stuff to change it into potential energy

    If you don't have stuff you can't store energy

    If all the ATOMS of stuff dissipate what is going to store the energy

    The exercise of winding back the Universe until you have a situation of a extremely hot plasma like stuff is fine and of course the question is asked what caused hot state to transfer into The Big Bang?

    The compressed hot state of the Universe has to be stuff??? as is cannot be non tangible ENERGY

    It 04:18 pm and when I got up about 1 hour ago for a short excursion I didn't intend to check my email. But I did and this rambling is the result

    Now it's go back to sleep as a busy day doing nothing later

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  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose in a way entropy is measure of dissipation of energy, if you consider that when energy becomes more randomised, spread out and unavailable to do work, that constitutes a form of dissipation. But indeed, it obviously can't disappear.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The plot thickens.

    https://www.britannica.com/video/185376/lack-energy-conservation

    TRANSCRIPT
     
  22. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Fields have properties too and can possess energy. For instance, there is stored energy in the field of an electromagnet* and there is of course energy in EM radiation, which consists of oscillating electric and magnetic fields. So a physical "system" need not necessarily involve matter in order to have energy as one of its properties.

    (And just to make matters worse, matter itself is nowadays accounted for in terms of fields, in QFT.

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    )


    * When an electromagnet is energised, work has to be done against the electric field that a changing magnetic field induces. Work also has to be done to align the magnetic moments of the atoms in the iron core of the magnet. Both of these represent stored energy, which is released again when the magnet is de-energised.
     
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  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    No argument here

    Can you have fields without stuff?

    ??? Quantum Foam ????

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