Do you think Mormons are true Christians?

The biggest contradiction of Genesis being if Adam and Eve were created by God to be "perfect", but yet God gave them (mankind) "free will," why would God "curse" all of mankind thereafter, if he knew Adam and Eve would muck things up?) Even if believers view this story as a metaphor, it fails to illustrate God as moral, himself. (the Christian concept of God, I'm referring to)
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Eve was created to be perfect, while Adam was created to be complete. Eve wanted to be perfect. This is why she could be lure to believe if she was like god, knowing the good from the bad, she could be perfect by always choosing like God. The ladies, also like the bad boys and Satan was the king of the bad boys. He told her what she wanted to hear; fountain of perfection. But it was a bad deal leading imperfection; she left paradise. Adam goes along, because he was created to be complete which includes imperfections; God become man; 1st Adam. Christ is the second Adam. Love is completeness because it brings together all points of view even between opposites.

Complete is neutral since you see all point of views. Perfection is polarized, to just the good. The imperfections that appear connect the potential between perfection and completeness.
 
wellwisher said:
Eve was created to be perfect, while Adam was created to be complete. Eve wanted to be perfect. This is why she could be lure to believe if she was like god, knowing the good from the bad, she could be perfect by always choosing like God. The ladies, also like the bad boys and Satan was the king of the bad boys. He told her what she wanted to hear; fountain of perfection. But it was a bad deal leading imperfection; she left paradise. Adam goes along, because he was created to be complete which includes imperfections; God become man; 1st Adam. Christ is the second Adam. Love is completeness because it brings together all points of view even between opposites.

Complete is neutral since you see all point of views. Perfection is polarized, to just the good. The imperfections that appear connect the potential between perfection and completeness.
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If God created mankind to be ‘imperfect,’ why would that same God be angry that his creation made a bad decision?

On the other hand, if God made mankind to be ‘perfect,’ why would he want to set up the Garden of Eden as a booby trap for Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall?

Even read as a metaphor, and not to be taken literally, it makes no sense. Unless we are to believe that God is really a sadist?

Put another way, if you have to keep contorting the story (in your own mind) to fit a version that you are willing to believe, that should lead you to dismissing it as utter nonsense.
 
wegs said:
The biggest contradiction of Genesis being if Adam and Eve were created by God to be "perfect", but yet God gave them (mankind) "free will," why would God "curse" all of mankind thereafter, if he knew Adam and Eve would muck things up? Even if believers view this story as a metaphor, it fails to illustrate God as moral, himself. (the Christian concept of God, I'm referring to
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If the Christian God, our "Father," walked down the street in any big American city, he'd be arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated for child abuse.
 
wegs said:
If God created mankind to be ‘imperfect,’ why would that same God be angry that his creation made a bad decision?

On the other hand, if God made mankind to be ‘perfect,’ why would he want to set up the Garden of Eden as a booby trap for Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall?

Even read as a metaphor, and not to be taken literally, it makes no sense. Unless we are to believe that God is really a sadist?

Put another way, if you have to keep contorting the story (in your own mind) to fit a version that you are willing to believe, that should lead you to dismissing it as utter nonsense.
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You have just touched upon one of the great mysteries. The theologians I have known have just left it as that, it is one of the great mysteries.
 
joepistole said:
You have just touched upon one of the great mysteries. The theologians I have known have just left it as that, it is one of the great mysteries.
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Why do they retreat to the "mysteriousness" cliche, when eluding apparent inconsistencies? Seems they could just as much blame it on semantic errors or the translation choices for adapting to what later gentile doctrines desired scripture and God properties to mean. Contemporary Christianity is descended from a collision between an internal Jewish movement and Greco-Roman traditions / philosophy. Somewhat humorously reminiscent of that episode of old ST where the damaged Nomad probe integrated its programming with the alien Tan Ru space probe, yielding a truly discombobulated hybrid.

Even Judaism was plagued with differing culture-blended systems of thought in regard to their interpretations. Like the Palestinian-Babylonian school, their own version of a Hellenistic school, and the school associated with the Qumran site / Essenes. So if there is a gentile defense of what "perfect", etc, as translated hither and thither in the Bible means for them -- via appealing to any similar view found among the "Semitic guardians" of the Old Testament texts -- then the latter might as much itself be suspect today of infecting any original intentions of the Hebrew works with extra-Jewish influences. As with the infestations haunting Christianity that force a semantic fit with their dogmas as evolved over the centuries.

The Hebrew word tōm, translated in Job 1:1 as perfect, has a number of different usages. The word, or one of its derivatives, is used in Genesis 17:1 where God told Abraham to “be perfect.” And all Israel was instructed to “be perfect” in verses such as Deuteronomy 18:13, 2 Samuel 22:33, and Psalm 101:2,6. After listing these uses in their wordbook, the authors quote the Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible as saying, “the words which are rendered in English by ‘perfect’ and ‘perfection’ denoted originally something other and less than ideal perfection”. In another authoritative Hebrew word study, Gesenius observed that the word translated as “perfect” can mean “integrity of mind” or “innocence.” He further commented that the word is used of “simplicity of mind, which is opposed to mischief and ill design”. Obviously, then, the Hebrew word in Job 1:1 that is translated “perfect” did not mean “sinlessness,” but was used instead to describe a person who was attempting to follow God’s commandments to the best of his or her ability.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=923 [​
 
mathman said:
My opinion: All religious texts were written by human beings and as a result are imperfect.
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Imperfect at what? At giving meaning to people's lives? Imperfect at inspiring the imagination of believers? Can any of you atheists do better?
 
Mazulu said:
Imperfect at what? At giving meaning to people's lives? Imperfect at inspiring the imagination of believers? Can any of you atheists do better?
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The Bible presents one contradiction after the next. To believe it to be God's word, is naive. More than likely, it is a book that was compiled by the early church "fathers" with the sole purpose to control society. If you look back in history to Constantine's regime, you will see what I'm referring to.

The Bible depicts God as a sadistic despot one minute, and a sacrificial lamb the next. If you wish to believe such nonsense, it is your choice, but this is why I grew angry with Christianity and eventually abandoned it. It's a book predicated on fables designed to instill fear and in turn, blind obedience to men...not a god.
 
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wegs said:
The Bible is one contradiction after the next. To believe it to be God's word, is naive. More than likely, it is a book that was compiled by the early church "fathers" with the sole purpose to control society. If you look back in history to Constantine's regime, you will see what I'm referring to.

The Bible depicts God as a sadistic despot one minute, and a sacrificial lamb the next. If you wish to believe such nonsense, it is your choice, but this is why I grew angry with Christianity and eventually abandoned it. It's a book predicated on fables designed to instill fear and in turn, blind obedience to men...not a god.
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Mathman said that ALL religious texts were imperfect and written by man. Even the works of Paramahansa Yogananda who taught yoga and meditation. I am still led to think that atheists want to destroy everything religious, even the good stuff, even the stuff that uplifts the spirit. I am led to believe that atheists are a bunch of thought police who want to tear down spirituality itself. I can only conclude that atheists are here to destroy everything good in the world.
 
Mazulu said:
Mathman said that ALL religious texts were imperfect and written by man. Even the works of Paramahansa Yogananda who taught yoga and meditation. I am still led to think that atheists want to destroy everything religious, even the good stuff, even the stuff that uplifts the spirit. I am led to believe that atheists are a bunch of thought police who want to tear down spirituality itself. I can only conclude that atheists are here to destroy everything good in the world.
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What he's saying is that if we are going to rely on man to pass down God's word, it will be imperfect. (if you believe in a god, etc)
Religion will destroy itself, you will see. With its many contradictions, justifications for bigotry, violence and sexism, and its opposition to science...it will destroy itself without any help whatsoever from non-believers. I speak only with regards to the three Abrahamic faiths. I have respect however, for some religions outside of those, even though I don't follow them.
 
wegs said:
What he's saying is that if we are going to rely on man to pass down God's word, it will be imperfect. (if you believe in a god, etc)
Religion will destroy itself, you will see. With its many contradictions, justifications for bigotry, violence and sexism, and its opposition to science...it will destroy itself without any help whatsoever from non-believers. I speak only with regards to the three Abrahamic faiths. I have respect however, for some religions outside of those, even though I don't follow them.
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You don't have to follow a religious faith; it's really up to you. I am not looking for justification for bigotry, violence, sexism, racism... I want to see those things healed. But science is lost to the practices of spiritual healing. Physicists can prove the existence of a Higgs boson, but they can't understand how to heal the suffering of the human spirit.
 
Mazulu said:
You don't have to follow a religious faith; it's really up to you. I am not looking for justification for bigotry, violence, sexism, racism... I want to see those things healed. But science is lost to the practices of spiritual healing. Physicists can prove the existence of a Higgs boson, but they can't understand how to heal the suffering of the human spirit.
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Aw, Mazulu - there are uncaring people in both camps, atheist and believer. But, humanity is not lost without a god. Since leaving religion, I'm free to see life as it is and hope in humanity for all that it is. I don't wish to sway you from your beliefs, but just want to encourage you to view atheists and those who don't believe as you do, in a better light. Do you know very many atheists? :eek:
 
wegs said:
Aw, Mazulu - there are uncaring people in both camps, atheist and believer. But, humanity is not lost without a god. Since leaving religion, I'm free to see life as it is and hope in humanity for all that it is. I don't wish to sway you from your beliefs, but just want to encourage you to view atheists and those who don't believe as you do, in a better light. Do you know very many atheists? :eek:
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[video=youtube;6ZqPLxCDLs4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZqPLxCDLs4[/video]
 
wegs said:
I'm free to see life as it is and hope in humanity for all that it is.
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If there is no "God", that means all the moral principles we argue about actually came from human beings. WE are the creators of these ideas and concepts. This "spirit" is truly a part of us. I find that encouraging.
 
gmilam said:
If there is no "God", that means all the moral principles we argue about actually came from human beings. WE are the creators of these ideas and concepts. This "spirit" is truly a part of us. I find that encouraging.
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I find it encouraging, too. :) (and inspiring)
 
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