Do "we" use the word "Trolling" a little too liberally?

BTW, for anybody who is interested in the actual context, here is the link to the thread in which Sarkus was warned, which I don't think anybody in this conversation has provided yet:

 
Similar with Yazata and I (sans the romance metaphor). We've known him for so long (pre-SF) that he's unavoidably like family.
_
Not seen Yazata for a bit.

Or write4you, the Ex sailor who went to Purdue, Origin.
 
James, I can appreciate that being a moderator, especially, the only one in most cases, isn't an easy job. Particularly under the existing forum rules.

I can also imagine that it's best for members and moderators to have, if not thick, at least more than thin skin.

Wouldn't is be better, easier to moderate and more consistent to just have fewer cases for warnings but to make those clearer and less ambiguous?

For instance, I think most would agree that no one should tell other members to "fuck off" or to call them a "bitch" or to use similar language.

That seems like a low bar that most would agree with. Most would also agree that there shouldn't be over the top, anger-based "hate speech". Again, that's a pretty low bar but pretty clear.

That leaves just annoying behavior meant to disrupt or at least should be expected to annoy and disrupt. A "well meaning" version of that may be Magical Realist. It's unfortunate that a longer-term member had to be banned and I probably wouldn't do it but I do get why it was done and it's easy to justify when you just post with no discussion, just to annoy and maybe inflame and do it over and over.

Usually, long-term members don't do that. Usually if someone has been here for a long time, their behavior is generally acceptable in a public forum and they generally don't need to be moderated.

The moderating can cause more problems than it solves, including for the moderator.

The usual case of "trolling" would just be repeating postings of math and nonsense, with little explanation or two-way discussion and then after a week or two, it's obvious that the new poster isn't here for discussions and that's who most bans should be for.

If those were the limited but basic rules, I think your job would be much easier, and there would be little disagreement among members (and probably moderators) as to what is allowed (most things) and what isn't (just a few unacceptable behaviors).

Wouldn't that be a more productive approach for all concerned?
 
Not seen Yazata for a bit.
Or write4you, the Ex sailor who went to Purdue, Origin.
Some of the old timers like Magical Realist really thought they should have the privilege to post cut and paste material without any commentary at all.
This from 2020 Scivillage. Leigha (Wegs) and Magical Realist chatting about Magical Realist being banned on Sciforums.
Magical Realist-
This time it was for the unpardonable sin of posting quotes on ufos without commentary or analysis. I guess I'm supposed to say, "Here's some quotes on ufos, and they look pretty good to me." or some such BS. In reality I just think those quotes got to James R too much. I mean they are pretty compelling.
Scivillage
 
From our site rules (emphasis mine):

I18. Trolling is the posting of inflammatory posts with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional (often angry) response. Trolls aim to disrupt normal on-topic discussion, often by raising tangential or irrelevant hot-button issues. Trolling posts are intended to incite controversy or conflict and/or to cause annoyance or offence.

Trolls are damaging to online communities because they attempt to pass as legitimate participants in discussions while actually seeking to disrupt normal conversation and debate. If permitted to remain, trolls tend to reduce the level of trust among members in an online community. One consequence may be that truly naive posts are rejected by sensitised members as just more examples of trolling.
Frankly I could say that any post you write is inflammatory, provokes some readers into an emotional response.
And that you do it to cause annoyance or offence.
That doesn't make it so.

Just because you were irked doesn't mean that was the intention of the post.
If you assume bad-faith at the outset you will see it, or course.
That still doesn't mean that what you see is the way it is.

Surely you should first warn the person about the sepcific nature of the post that you have issue with.
You did: it was a matter of relevance.
He explained twice why it was relevant.
And it was.
You warned him for "trolling".
Sarkus posted an inflammatory post with the intent to provoke a specific reader - me - into an angry response. He intended to annoy me, at the very least, and perhaps to cause offence.
You have no evidence of this intent.
None.
You are confusing the fact that you were provoked into an angry response with that being the intention.
To provoke?
Sure.
One provokes others into seeing the flaws in what they have said.

Into an angry response?
That would seem to be on you.
No evidence of intention whatsoever.

If anything, he is the one who was irked by your initial insult.
Then your subsequent insult.

Trolling by Sarkus?
No.

And you're doing nothing to help clarify why it is.
Sarkus has developed a bad habit of stalking me around the forum, attempting to pass as a legitimate participant in discussions while actually seeking to disrupt normal conversation and debate. This is repeated behaviour from Sarkus. This was not a first offence.
Responding to you is "stalking"?
You're both regular and frequent posters.
This is a ridiculous attempt at justification.
It speaks only to bias on your part.
And your insecurity.
Are we to take from this that the rules for "trolling" should now include "Sarkus responding to anything James R posts"?
It is clearly you treating Sarkus differently from other posters.
It is bias on your part.
And it still doesn't explain what he did that was "trolling".
Your bolded comments above are not borne out in what he posted.

I will add the text of the warning I sent to Sarkus, for additional clarity and transparency:
So because you got irked by something he said, that's "trolling"?
Yet at no point did you actually explain to him what you got irked by, but rather focussed on relevancy?
This is all so baffling.

It's almost like you know the warnings were not justified, either for "trolling" or for anything else you are trying to come up with.
But you can't find a way to resolve the matter.

So we're just left with confusion.
Is this all clear enough for you, Baldeee, or are you still struggling to understand what went down with your little friend?
It's clear that the issue was not with what Sarkus posted, but with you being challenged.
The initial comments was on-topic.
The challenge was on-topic.
You argued about relevancy.
It was relevant.
At no point did you tell him it was "inappropriately personal", if that really is the issue you had.

I can see clearly enough what went on between you and Sarkus and Parmalee.
Your accusation of, and warning for "trolling" by Sarkus simply does not stack up.
So I'm still confused, as are probably many here, by what you're saying to now justify the warning you gave him.
 
Some of the old timers like Magical Realist really thought they should have the privilege to post cut and paste material without any commentary at all.
This from 2020 Scivillage. Leigha (Wegs) and Magical Realist chatting about Magical Realist being banned on Sciforums.
Magical Realist-

Scivillage
MR could post reasonably, unfortunately the UFO ones just got silly.
 
Baldeee:

Sarkus doesn't know when to stop. Actually, I don't think he can stop himself. He just keeps going and going, battering away with the same pedantic points over and over again, long after those points have been answered.

It seems that this is another trait that you share with him. I wonder if that is just a coincidence...
Frankly I could say that any post you write is inflammatory, provokes some readers into an emotional response.
And that you do it to cause annoyance or offence.
Clearly, your aim here is not to offer any constructive criticism. You should consider giving it a rest. You're becoming tiresome, just like Sarkus is.
Just because you were irked doesn't mean that was the intention of the post.
If you assume bad-faith at the outset you will see it, or course.
You are blithely ignoring the history I have with Sarkus. I certainly did not assume bad-faith at the outset (which was years ago, by the way).

Sarkus started posting in bad faith a year or two ago, after I called him out on some sub-par behaviour of his. He got quite irate with me and he has more or less stayed that way for the past couple of years following that incident. That hasn't been helped by the fact that he has come out looking rather bad in a couple of subsequent fights he decided to pick with me.

Now, he sort of lurks and waits for me to post a passing comment on a random topic, looking for any opportunity to pounce and claim to catch me out in a supposed error or other failing. He's a tiresome pedant who never knows when to quit an argument, particularly the ones he starts.

The fallout of Sarkus's ongoing poor behaviour is that now, I certainly do assume bad faith from him. It's perfectly rational for me to do that because it is a recurring pattern for him to post in bad faith in all his direct interactions with me.

At what point, if any, will you acknowledge that he bears any responsibility for the consequences that flow directly from his actions?
You have no evidence of this intent.
Wrong. See above.
You are confusing the fact that you were provoked into an angry response with that being the intention.
I think you're the one who is confused. Either that, or dishonest. I'm not sure which.

Sarkus followed his usual pattern of behaviour in starting an interaction with me, which he has repeated over and over during the last couple of years.
Into an angry response?
That would seem to be on you.
Victim blaming. Focus on the troll, not the target of the troll.
If anything, he is the one who was irked by your initial insult.
He told you this, did he? Or is it that you just know him so well that you can infer it with confidence?
Trolling by Sarkus?
Almost invariably. Habitually.
Responding to you is "stalking"?
Nice try. No cigar. Try posting honestly, Baldeee. Stop with the silly strawmen. Aren't you any better than this?
This is a ridiculous attempt at justification.
It speaks only to bias on your part.
And your insecurity.
You sound uncannily like Sarkus.

You're out to try to hurt - just like he always is. You apparently don't know when to stop - just like he doesn't.

What's up with the two of you? What led you to take such twisted pleasure in this schoolyard bullying nonsense you both seem to relish so much?
Are we to take from this that the rules for "trolling" should now include "Sarkus responding to anything James R posts"?
You take it however you want, Baldeee. It will make no difference. You're actually irrelevant in this, unless you're actually Sarkus.

Why don't you put Sarkus on, so he can argue his own case? Why does he need a toady to stand in his place? Gutless? Or have you simply taken it upon yourself to fight his battles for him?
It is clearly you treating Sarkus differently from other posters.
I think you'll find that I treat all trolls similarly.
It is bias on your part.
Yes. I have a bias against humouring trolls for long.

How long do you plan to continue with this? How many repeats will it be before you're done? Or can't you say?

Do you know when to stop, Baldeee, or are you just like Sarkus?
It's clear that the issue was not with what Sarkus posted, but with you being challenged.
You're desperate to try to put your own spin on the matter.

Meanwhile, I'm not convinced I'm not talking to a dishonest sock puppet of a guy who's too gutless to put his own words under his own name.
 
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Note how the moderator once again tries to turn the issue not from whether or not what Sarkus did was "trolling" (being the case-study I brought up), to trying to denigrate the character of the one pushing back against what he has said.

I think we can conclude from all this that not only is "trolling" overused by the members, but more importantly by the moderator himself.

I'm still no closer, from what James R has said in this thread, to understanding what "trolling" actually means here in practice.
He has given the "rules", but then the warning he has given in the case-study I've used clearly has very little to do with those rules.
And he's unable to explain how they do, and how what he said in that discussion supports it.

As an aside, I think we can also conclude that the moderator harbours serious grudges that he tries to project onto other people.
 
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I think it would be helpful if the moderation was limited as I suggested above and then the moderator as member, would be just like any other member with no need for us to psychoanalyze each other.

The issue seems to be treating a moderator just like any other member except when we treat him like a moderator. The two don't really go together. The same issue came up with Tiassa but it's no longer a problem since Tiassa is just another member now. Tiassa didn't have to change, just not moderate.

We should be able to treat James just like any other member, for his sake and for ours.

Just have clear and limited rules for moderating. Basically, play nice and have to get along with others without special rules for anyone.

Most of the "drama" on this site is self-created by the members. No need to throw moderating rules into the mix.
 
The hidden moderator who no one expects.
As the thread originator, I have decided to invoke special Rule 41, therefore the thread will remain open.

Furthermore, Wegs and I have decided, from this day forth, Pinball1970 will have veto power over any and all future moderators.

We hope this will satisfactorily resolve all issues as we (as a community) move forward. Thanks for you patience.
 
As the thread originator, I have decided to invoke special Rule 41, therefore the thread will remain open.

Furthermore, Wegs and I have decided, from this day forth, Pinball1970 will have veto power over any and all future moderators.

We hope this will satisfactorily resolve all issues as we (as a community) move forward. Thanks for you patience.
As the thread originator, I have decided to invoke special Rule 41, therefore the thread will remain open.

Furthermore, Wegs and I have decided, from this day forth, Pinball1970 will have veto power over any and all future moderators.

We hope this will satisfactorily resolve all issues as we (as a community) move forward. Thanks for you patience.
I am honoured sir but alas I cannot accept this weighty task.

It would be a burden on my character and manhood. I was put forth on this earth and site for labours and trials of another sort.
 
I am honoured sir but alas I cannot accept this weighty task.

It would be a burden on my character and manhood. I was put forth on this earth and site for labours and trials of another sort.
Understood. You have chosen a different, perhaps more noble, path. Veto power isn't for everyone I suppose. Should the torch be passed to Parmalee, Bill, maybe the weight of that responsibility is too great for any one man or woman?

Are you suggesting, in your wisdom, a simple button, available to all, distributing that power to the collective masses? Interesting. You continue to give. Thank you sir!
 
I think this happens a lot on forums, which is odd. When this site had a lot of traffic, it seemed like there was a sense of equity in terms of rule following, You’d think it would be harder to get most people on the same page when the group is larger, as opposed to now, when its much smaller. For such a small group, there’s a lot of disagreement and baiting into arguments over minor issues.
 
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