Discussion: The origins of oil is irrelevant

Discussion in 'Formal debates' started by Asguard, Jul 18, 2008.

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  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Syzygys i quite like your dodo analogy but i have another one for you and thats the murray darling Basin which is the main water surplie for adelaide and for irrigation all the way from Queensland, down through NSW and the ACT, through victoria and into SA where its SURPOSED to exit into the sea. Now water is a renuable resorce but not if you over use it. The river system is so over alocated that it hasnt exited into the ocean in AGES and now the lakes and wet lands which keep the river healthy are also dying.

    here is a wikipedia artical on it
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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    A point of order:

    From the Proposal thread for this Debate, I cannot see any agreement as to the rules for the debate (e.g. total number of posts, time allowed, who the participants are, etc.)

    I ask Syzygys and OilisMastery to post here their agreement to the [thread=76020]Standard Rules for a One-on-One Formal Debate[/thread].

    If these rules are agreed, the debate can proceed. If you wish to change any of the rules, then I suggest that the debate be suspended until agreement is reached.
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  7. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

    That won't be necessary because I already won.
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    You can't win a debate you don't have, OilIsMastery.

    Are you backing down?
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    how is insulting everyone who disagrees with you winning?
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    It appears that OilisMastery has forfeited in this debate, and Syzygys "wins" by default.
  11. CheskiChips Banned Banned

    Knowing the origins of oil could help us find a more effective way for synthesis.
  12. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    That is actually a good argument, although the debate was more about producing oil not making it....
  13. kmguru Staff Member

    Should not it be that if oil is biogenic then it is a limited supply, but if it is abiogenic then the supply could be 10,000X ? Are we debating on the right framework?...May be I missed something somewhere....

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  14. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

    There was no debate.

    "We’ve barely tapped, from the exploration point of view, the hydrocarbon potential that’s out there on this planet." -- Stanley B. Keith, 2005

    "We're dealing with this giant flow-through system where the hydrocarbons are generating now, moving through the overlying strata now, building the reservoirs now and spilling out into the ocean now." -- Larry M. Cathles, 2003

    "I don't think anybody's arguing that gas couldn't be generated from the mantle." -- Barry J. Katz, 2002

    "I don't think anybody has ever doubted that there is an inorganic source of hydrocarbons." -- Michael D. Lewan, 2002

    "There has not been any 'debate' about the origin of hydrocarbons for over a century. Competent physicists, chemists, chemical engineers and men knowledgeable of thermodynamics have known that natural petroleum does not evolve from biological material since the last quarter of the 19th century." -- Jack F. Kenney, 2002

    "Natural petroleum has no connection with biological matter." -- Jack F. Kenney, 2001

    "I believe there is a huge system of oil just migrating." -- Jean K. Whelan, 1999

    "These reservoirs are refilling with oil." -- David Sibley, 1999

    "The industry will never run out of oil, not in 10,000 years. Some day, it may run out of customers. Every mineral industry is a perpetual tug-of-war, between diminishing returns and increasing knowledge." -- Morris A. Adelman, 1997

    "Neither we, nor our grandchildren, nor their grandchildren will live to see the end of the oil era." -- Karl-Heinz Schult-Bornemann, 1997

    "The modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins is not controversial nor presently a matter of academic debate. The period of debate about this extensive body of knowledge has been over for approximately two decades (Simakov 1986)." -- Jack F. Kenney, 1996

    "Stable carbon isotopes are not a reliable criterion for distinguishing biogenic from non-biogenic petroleum." -- A.A. Giardini and Charles E. Melton, 1991

    "The general concept of petroleum formation by biogenic mechanisms has been firmly entrenched for a long time, but there has been no accumulation of convincing experimental evidence in support of this belief." -- Charles E. Melton and A.A. Giardini, 1983

    "The suggestion that petroleum might have arisen from some transformation of squashed fish or biological detritus is surely the silliest notion to have been entertained by substantial numbers of persons over an extended period of time." -- Fred Hoyle, 1982

    "Statistical thermodynamic analysis has established clearly that hydrocarbon molecules which comprise petroleum require very high pressures for their spontaneous formation, comparable to the pressures required for the same of diamond. In that sense, hydrocarbon molecules are the high-pressure polymorphs of the reduced carbon system as is diamond of elemental carbon. Any notion which might suggest that hydrocarbon molecules spontaneously evolve in the regimes of temperature and pressure characterized by the near-surface of the Earth, which are the regimes of methane creation and hydrocarbon destruction, does not even deserve consideration." -- Emmanuil B. Chekaliuk, 1968

    “Several times in the past we have thought we were running out of oil whereas actually we were only running out of ideas.” -- Parke A. Dickey, 1958

    "The overwhelming preponderance of geological evidence compels the conclusion that crude oil and natural petroleum gas have no intrinsic connection with biological matter originating near the surface of the Earth. They are primordial materials which have been erupted from great depths." -- Vladimir B. Porfir'yev, 1956

    "Oil is the creature of direct action of common earth forces on common earth materials." -- Wallace E. Pratt, 1942

    "All the petroleum, natural gas, and bituminous fields or deposits cannot be regarded as anything else but the products of solfotaric volcanic emanations condensed and held in their passage upward in the porous tanks of all ages of the crust of the earth from the Archaean rocks to the Quaternary. Nothing is so simple and therefore nothing so natural as this origin, and we will see that it can be abundantly proven." -- Eugene Coste, 1903

    "It is obvious that the total amount of petroleum in the rocks underlying the surface ... is large beyond computation." -- Edward Orton, 1888

    "The capital fact to note is that petroleum was born in the depths of the Earth, and it is only there that we must seek its origin." -- Dmitri Mendeleyev, 1877

    "It may be supposed that naphta was produced by the action of water penetrating through the crevices of the strata during the upheaval of mountain chains because water with iron carbide ought to give iron oxide and hydrocarbons." -- Dmitri Mendeleyev, 1877

    "Whether naphta was formed by organic matter is very doubtful, as it is found in the most ancient Silurian [Ordovician] strata which correspond with the epochs of the earth's existence when there was very little organic matter; it could not penetrate from the higher to the lower (more ancient) strata as it floats on water (and water penetrates through all strata)." -- Dmitri Mendeleyev, 1877

    "Petroleum is the product of a distillation from great depth and issues from the primitive rocks beneath which the forces of all volcanic action lie." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, 1804
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Who are these people you've quoted?
  16. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

    They are all PhDs in the sciences.

    If you'd ever taken a basic high school chemistry class you would know who Dmitri Mendeleyev is.
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Irrelevant to any discussion, this is merely a statement of position/opinion. The statement does nothing to address the origin of those hydrocarbons.

    Could just as easily be argued to support biogenisis, as this quote does not discuss the origins of the hydrocarbons, merely describes part of the system, and presents a description supported by biogenisis.

    This quote simply states that Methane couold be generated in the mantle - alnowledging the possibility, says nothing of how important this source is. For all anybody knows, the context of this could have been "Yes, it's possible, but I don't think it's significant".

    Again, this statement addresses the possibiloity of the source, not the importance of the source.

    Although these two statements are clearly in favour of abiotic oil, Jack F Kenney appears to run a texas based oil company. I have been unable to ascertain if this individual possesses a PhD in a relevant field as has been claimed, however, clearly this individual has a vested interest in Abiotic oil over biotic oil, and convincing us that abiotic oil is a proven fact at this point - in much the same way that a tobacco tycoon has a vested interest in proving that smoking is safe.

    Does not address where the oil is migrating from, or to, nor does it address the ultimate origin of the oil.

    Does not address the rate at which the reservoirs are refilling.
    Does not address the source of the oild (In fact biogenesis allows for some refilling).

    An unsubstantiated opinion that does nothing to support either biogenesis or abiogenesis. Simply a statement that he believes we have substantially more reserves then we currently estimate we do. Does nothing to address the origin of the oil. Adelman is an economist based out of MIT that has written at least one scathing paper regarding the oil economy, rather then the origins of oil.

    This individual is a high ranking public relations 'officer' in Esso, therefore provably has a (non scientific) interest in promoting abiogenisis over biogenisis. Also, this comment is simply a comment about quantity, not quality.

    I've already addressed this individuals quotes. It's also worth pointing out that the Russian-Ukranian theory of abiotic oil was initially politically motivated, and has yet to be used to successfully explore a field.

    Does not address the the origins of the oil, merely questions the validity of one piece of evidence.

    A statement of opinion only, arguably a proponent of the biogenic mechanism would say the asme thing about the abiogenic mechanism.

    While Fred Hoyle was a notable astrophysicist - mostly because of his work on stellar nucleosynthesis, this is simply an expression of unsubstantiated opinion, and Fred Hoyle was involved in a number of controversies involving opposition to 'mainstream theories'.

    Potentially a politically motivated source, I (personally) have provided a more recent source which directly contradicts this statement, and have also pointed out a set of simple chemical reactions (the end state of an oxidative proccess) which directly contradicts this, and is thermodynamically viable at STP.

    An accurate statement, however, does nothing to address the origins of oil, merely methods of extraction.

    Arguably a politically motivated source - one doesn't get to be senior anything in 1950's soviet russia without being a model citizen.

    Arguably, 'biological detritus' constitutes 'common earth materials', so this quote as it stands can be interepted any way the reader wants.

    Solfotaric vulcanism is another name for fumaroles. Fumaroles occur where you have ground water lying above a heat source (normally in the vicinity of an active volcanoe, but not exclusively). Any correlation between oil deposition and fumarolic activity should not surprise anyone, as fumarolic activity indicates a heat source - one of the stated requirements for biogenesis. It should also be pointed out that this is an outdated source, using an outdated concept (nature is simple), therefore the quote is of at best questionable validity.

    Does nothing to address the source of this petroleum, simply implies there may be more then we expect.

    An assumption, and an opinion. One can only assume that Mendeleyev has been quoted as an appeal to authority (as indicated by the posters subsequent response), however it is well known that Mendeleyev predicted many things that did not come to pass, even with regards to the periodic table - He predicted lighter then hydrogen elements, and the Ether.

    This quote directly contradicts one of the posters own sources which states that hydrocarbons are formed by the action of water on carbonates in high P/T regimes.

    An outdated quote based on incomplete information.

    During the Silurian we find extensive land cover in the form of mosses near streams and lakes. We also know that by this stage there was extensive aquatic biota. Equally it is also known that there were several minor extinction events during the silurian that were associated with changes in geochemistry, rapid burial, and changes in erosion patterns.

    It should also be pointed out that inversions are possible in strata for a variety of reasons.

    Another outdated quote based on incomplete information.
  18. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    The only sciences that mendeleyev is mentioned are biology and genitics.
  19. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

    LOL@U. You are confusing Mendeleyev with Mendel just as you confuse truth with falsehood.
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    ??? i get the first part not the second. You mean i don't confuse your bullshit for reality for the second don't you.
  21. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

    Mendeleyev was a chemist. He was the inventor of the periodic table of elements which you've obviously never heard of.
  22. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

    You're thinking of Gregor Mendel
  23. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    I think of him a lot too. Do you think it's contagious?
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