Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

[S.A.M.]

'Matrilineality in Judaism is the view that people born of a Jewish mother are themselves Jewish. The Torah does not explicitly discuss the conferring of Jewish status through matrilineality, and in apparent contrast to this position, the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) provides many examples of Israelite men whose children by foreign women appear to have been accepted as Israelite. However, Jewish oral tradition codified in Mishnah by the 2nd century CE maintains that matrilineality was always the rule, and adduces indirect textual evidence from the Torah, with the implicit assumption that the women in question converted to Judaism.The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism, (ger tzedek, "righteous convert")'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism

Thats obviously false. Why?



According to Professor Shaye Cohen of Brown University:
"Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must "convert" to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert."


So either the Israelites were not followers of Judaism or there has been a change in the thought of what constitutes a Jew

Tracing to when matrilineal descent became part of Judaism:

Sometime during the Roman occupation and the Second Temple period, a law of matrilineal descent, which defined a Jew as someone with a Jewish mother, was adopted. By the 2nd century CE, it was clearly practiced.

http://judaism.about.com/od/whoisajew/a/whoisjewdescent.htm

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Thats obviously false. Why?



According to Professor Shaye Cohen of Brown University:
"Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must "convert" to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert."


So either the Israelites were not followers of Judaism or there has been a change in the thought of what constitutes a Jew

Tracing to when matrilineal descent became part of Judaism:



http://judaism.about.com/od/whoisajew/a/whoisjewdescent.htm

Because of what you claimed. My initial question was how a woman can be a jew through a patrilineal line. You asked if I ever read Deuteronomy and then asked if I noticed all the missing mothers. Then you go on to say that you have a feeling that the matrilineal lineage in jews is probably a later innovation. Hence the women aren't missing and I showed you where in that same book it mentions the preference for women marrying within the sect saying nothing of the men. Since Judaism only recognizes a jew as a jew born of a jewish mother I'm curious as to how the chinese girl in the video can claim to be a jew from a patrilineal line and still be seen as a jew by other jews.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I would be interested to learn how the Jews from China bypassed the laws though..

So would I. I would be interested in seeing something that describes what jewish practices were passed down through the generations that can be identified today and which jewish clan they descended from and how they ended up in China. Evidently there is a chinese scholar who believes this is all hogwash:

One scholar, Dr. Xun Zhou, doubts the authenticity of the Kaifeng community, believing it to have been largely a Western cultural construct. Xun Zhou, a research fellow at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, maintains that the community had no Torah scrolls until 1851, when they suddenly appeared to be sold to eager Western collectors. She also states that drawings of the synagogue were doctored in the West because the original did not look like one, and that the Kaifeng community claimed to have kept some Jewish practices since before they are known to have begun. Xun Zhou's conclusion is that the Kaifeng community was not Jewish in any meaningful sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews

But check it out, I doubt that Israeli officials would accept a group based on dubious claims so I'm curious as to what it is they themselves noticed within the group that convinced them that these are the descendants of jews.

 

[S.A.M.]

Lucy you may also be interested in this:

One of Israel's chief rabbis has recognised an Indian tribe as lost descendants of ancient Israelites.

The Chief Rabbi of the Sephardic Jews, Shlomo Amar, has informed members of the 6,000-strong Bnei Menashe community in India's north-east of his decision.

The ruling will ease the tribes' emigration to Israel from the states of Manipur and Mizoram.

Bnei Menashe members welcomed the announcement, saying they could now "go to the Promised Land".

'Detailed investigation'

The chief rabbi is now planning to formally convert the Bnei Menashe members to Orthodox Judaism.


....Other Israeli groups have dismissed the claim as "historically untenable." DNA studies at the Central Forensic Institute in Calcutta suggest that while the masculine side of the tribes bears no links to Israel, the feminine side suggests a genetic profile with Middle Eastern people that may have arisen through inter-marriage.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4400957.stm

The vast majority of the Mizo and Kuki people were converted to Christianity beginning in the first decades of the 19th century. Until 100 years ago, the Bnei Menashe, like other peoples in northeast India, were animists. They practiced their ancient religions and had their own customs, including ritual sacrifice. At the end of the 19th century, Christian missionaries arrived, and with them came the New Testament, with its descriptions of Jewish faith, rituals and history. According to local folklore, in the 1950s two Kuki men who had been converted by the missionaries each had separate visions telling them that they were the lost Israelite tribe of Manasseh, and that they must return home to Israel. They started spreading their vision among the Kuki and Mizo people, who gradually started calling themselves Manmasseh – Bnei Menashe.

http://amirmizroch.com/2009/01/20/jews-lost-and-found-in-india/

On such flimsy claims is the law of return based. Ironically, the Palestinians are probably more closely related to the original Judeans than any of the Israeli Jews since they, at least, never left.

One DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim concluded that genetic evidence coincides with historical accounts that at least part of the Arab Israeli and Palestinian population is mainly descended from local Christians and Jews "who had converted [to Islam] after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century A.D."[110][111][112] These Christian and Jewish converts are believed to be descended from a "core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times."

But do they get their rights in their own native lands? Of course not, not as logical as visions by nutcases in remote underdeveloped corners of India. Its interesting that they will convert them to orthodox Judaism so that they can then qualify for the right of return. Maybe thats how they are dealing with the Chinese "lost tribe" as well.

My initial question was how a woman can be a jew through a patrilineal line

Ah okay, I did not realise you were asking for a specific instance today

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@Sam

Do you know if there were any signs of tradition being passed down from the Indian group? The Ethiopian jews for example celebrated similar holidays, circumcised in the same way and showed other signs of jewish traditions etc.

I'm dying to know if the Chinese group exemplified signs of jewish tradition or if its just a case of DNA. The baffling thing is that orthodox jews have very high standards for what they believe makes a jew a jew, they are not typically interested in bringing people in willy-nilly and if the rules were relaxed it would be sure to create a huge row within their orders, which is why I don't understand how they could accept a chinese girl as a full fledged jew who claims aliyah based on a patrilineal line since the rules are as follows.

'In Israel, the status quo is that the Orthodox definition is followed: the child of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother may immigrate to Israel (and may claim rights under the Law of Return), but will be registered in official documents as a non-Jew.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism

If there is a certain population among Palestinians who can claim this it would be interesting to see what would happen if they tried. Would they force them to convert to orthodoxy do you think? Palestinians probably wouldn't want to be in Israel under the claim of being direct descendants anyway but it would be interesting to see what would happen if they tried.

Why do they have teams going around doing this anyway do you know? Its a strange thing to do in a way, searching the globe for scattered jewry that may not even know they are descendants, do not practice and then dragging them back to Israel. How do they find them? How do they even know where to look? It cracked me up to hear that girl saying she was happy to be 'home'. I mean I was like "U must be kidding me!" She just found out she was jewish like yesterday! They must be offering them incentives or something. Another thing is this Chinese scholar who disputes the jewishness of the Kaifeng clan, she claims that its a 'western construct' but it doesn't really go on to explain this in any depth. I would be curious as to what she means by this. She claims that the group isn't jewish in any meaningful sense and I am inclined to agree with her unless of course there is evidence of primary traditions that were passed down from generation to generation because I don't believe for one second that they were wearing those yamakas EVER while in China nor any of their previous descendants because if they were they would not be considered Han while in China but some sub-tribe which would give the claim more credence but then everyone would have known about them a long time ago.

 

[S.A.M.]

Why do they have teams going around doing this anyway do you know?

Numbers

The Kuki-Chin-Mizo or "Chhinlung Chhuak" are ethnologically descendent of one ancestor, knit together by common tradition, customs, culture, language and social life. They live in India, Myanmar and Bangladesh.

Their population break up is about 5,00,000 with an area of 9,500 sq. km. in Manipur, about 8,00,000 with an area of 22,000 sq. kms. in Mizoram about 2,00,000 with an area of 1000 sq. km Cachar and North Cachar in Assam, about 2,00,000 with an area of 7,800 sq.km. in Chittagong Hill track of Bangladesh and 30,00,000 with an area of more than 10,000 sq. km. in Chin Hills, Matu area, Khumi area, Mira area and Arakan area in Myanmar (CIPC Diary by F. Lala p. 136).

Their total population therefore, is about 50,00,000 millions with an area of 1,24,500 sq. km. Though they are the same group with same origin same culture, speaking the same language and are knit together by same custom and tradition they have unfortunately been called and known by different names in different countries.

http://www.chhinlungisrael.com/articles/kuki-chin-mizothelosttribeofisrael

Thats a lot of "Jews" for the "Jewish state" lol. Cannon fodder one and all.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@Sam

But this culture of the Kuki-Chin-Mizo, is it jewish culture?

Surely they're not bringing them all into Israel. Now, come on. I'm sure they're not simply trying to increase the ranks of the IDF, especially if they're all becoming orthodox, then they'll just refuse to serve.

If its numbers how do they go about this? I'm truly bemused. And how do they get them to take aliyah? I understand it for Jews who have always known they are jews but...

 

[S.A.M.]

@Sam

But this culture of the Kuki-Chin-Mizo, is it jewish culture?

Surely they're not bringing them all into Israel. Now, come on. I'm sure they're not simply trying to increase the ranks of the IDF, especially if they're all becoming orthodox, then they'll just refuse to serve.

If its numbers how do they go about this? I'm truly bemused. And how do they get them to take aliyah? I understand it for Jews who have always known they are jews but...

I think about 7500 of them have made "aliyah" so far

As for Jewish culture - what is Jewish culture?

The culture of the Kuki-Chin-Mizo is animist-Christian. But hey two of them had a vision that they were the lost tribe of Israel so it must be true

As for why they are herded into Israel,

The Mizo Jews have been settled in the cities of Nazareth Illit and Karmiel in northern Israel - areas which were hard hit by rockets fired by the Lebanese guerrilla group Hizbollah this summer during a 34-day conflict with Israel.

In fact, according to information obtained by Christian Today, many Mizo Jews have found themselves being drafted in the Israeli army and fighting alongside their Israeli 'friends' to defend their 'Promised Land.' Others have taken up menial jobs, working in private enterprises, sources said.

"I have no doubt that the newly converted here are practicing the religion perfectly. Once they reach Israel they will be undergoing a year-long course to finetune other aspects of Judaism at government expense," said Rabbi Hannock Avizedek, an Israeli preacher, who had visited Mizoram recently.

http://in.crossmap.com/cmboard/view.php?&bbs_id=news&page=1&doc_num=219

Nothing says welcome to Judaism like moving from peace to abuse, from dancing for coexistence to violently fighting those whose homes you move into

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@Sam

Jewish culture are the traditions ie: circumcision, mikveh, bar mitzvah, kashrut etc. It doesn't have to be identified by hebrew names but the timing etc should be approximate.

Why did they go? Why do they stay? Can't they just go back to India? I mean they must have stronger ties in India, family etc. than they have in Israel. They wouldn't have been able to avoid the military as its mandatory.

 

[S.A.M.]

@Sam

Jewish culture are the traditions ie: circumcision, mikveh, bar mitzvah, kashrut etc. It doesn't have to be identified by hebrew names but the timing etc should be approximate.

Why did they go? Why do they stay? Can't they just go back to India? I mean they must have stronger ties in India, family etc. than they have in Israel. They wouldn't have been able to avoid the military as its mandatory.

They are not or rather, they were not, practicing Jews or any other kind of Jews. Almost all of them are animists who were converted to Christianity by British evangelists during the Indian occupation. However, now that they are converting to Judaism, one assumes they will be more Jewish than the Israelis.

As for why, who knows? Mizoram is poor although educated and there are few industries and job opportunities. Israeli emigration is a package deal with housing and job security. Its kinda like an Englishman or woman discovering they had DNA in common with Prophet Mohammed and moving to Saudi Arabia after converting to Islam except the Mizos don't have the DNA link [except with some "Middle Eastern" people in the women which is probably of Mongol origin] just some "visions"

edit:may have to re-think previous comment. Apparently, the Mizo Jews are dumber than I suspected:

Rabbi Rav Hanoch Avizedek, an Israeli preacher deputed by the Chief Rabbinate, explained: "We do not provide any job or financial assistance, but we do help them live in Israel." He added that like the other citizens of Israel, it is mandatory for all the Mizo Jews to serve in the Israeli Army for a few years, especially in the disturbed Gaza Strip and West Bank areas."

The Rabbi, who has been here for some time now, held that the Israeli government would find a suitable area for the Mizo Jews to settle down, but he could not assure anything. This comes even as the Israeli embassy, New Delhi, has since the last two years tightened visa norms for Mizos trying to shift out. Official sources at the Israeli embassy said there is a risk of Mizo Jews becoming economic immigrants masquerading as a Lost Tribe.

Even then, many Mizos have been learning Hebrew and tenets of Judaism in a bid to clear the test of conversion, which would be conducted by the rabbis.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...dia/27835900_1_mizoram-mizo-jews-bnei-menashe

They are just cannon fodder.

 

[CptBork]

edit:may have to re-think previous comment. Apparently, the Mizo Jews are dumber than I suspected:

They are just cannon fodder.

Your compassionate concern for the wellbeing of the Mizo Jews is noted and, I'm sure, very much appreciated. If you have any statistics on the combat casualties sustained by this alleged cannon fodder, please cite them.

 

[S.A.M.]

Your compassionate concern for the wellbeing of the Mizo Jews is noted and, I'm sure, very much appreciated. If you have any statistics on the combat casualties sustained by this alleged cannon fodder, please cite them.

Why? because you are so good at supporting your opinions with statistics? I've done enough one way citation with you to consider it not worth the bother. If animist Christians in Mizoram want to join the settler movement and die for visions, thats their prerogative. The rabbis statements that they have mandatory services in the disturbed areas and news reports that they are settled in the most dangerous zones [unlike the kosher Jews who get safer locations in the interior] are self explanatory except to the ziocaine addict.

I just give them the Darwin award, as usual. Nothing else you can do with irretrievable rampant stupidity.

 

[CptBork]

Why? because you are so good at supporting your opinions with statistics?

When I have a statistical assertion to make, yes.

I've done enough one way citation with you to consider it not worth the bother.

Link dumps aren't the same thing as one way citations. It would be more wise to pick a few specific citations and focus on the details, rather than just grabbing URL's from David Duke's blog, or one of those crazy amateur conspiracy websites with a blue background, a few frames and 300 links in ugly yellow font about how awful the Jews are.

If animist Christians in Mizoram want to join the settler movement and die for visions, thats their prerogative. The rabbis statements that they have mandatory services in the disturbed areas and news reports that they are settled in the most dangerous zones [unlike the kosher Jews who get safer locations in the interior] are self explanatory except to the ziocaine addict.

Yeah, I must be too busy snorting ziocaine to notice all the reports about this cannon fodder being settled on S.A.M.'s private property and dying from the resulting combat.

I just give them the Darwin award, as usual. Nothing else you can do with irretrievable rampant stupidity.

Well at least you give the Jews an award, that's progress.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

They are not or rather, they were not, practicing Jews or any other kind of Jews. Almost all of them are animists who were converted to Christianity by British evangelists during the Indian occupation. However, now that they are converting to Judaism, one assumes they will be more Jewish than the Israelis.

As for why, who knows? Mizoram is poor although educated and there are few industries and job opportunities. Israeli emigration is a package deal with housing and job security. Its kinda like an Englishman or woman discovering they had DNA in common with Prophet Mohammed and moving to Saudi Arabia after converting to Islam except the Mizos don't have the DNA link [except with some "Middle Eastern" people in the women which is probably of Mongol origin] just some "visions"

edit:may have to re-think previous comment. Apparently, the Mizo Jews are dumber than I suspected:



They are just cannon fodder.

@Sam

Well it seems that there was reason for the Rabbi's to suspect they were jews both culturally and from DNA evidence, its this kind of information I was looking for on the Kaifeng Jews. I found this:

The Bnei Menashe believe that the traditional Mizo-Kuki-Hmar harvest festival song in the Hmar language, "Sikpui Hla (Sikpui Song)" which features events paralleled in the Book of Exodus, such as enemies chasing them over a red-coloured sea, quails, and a pillar of cloud is clear evidence of their Israelite ancestry. Translation of the lyrics:

While we are preparing for the Sikpui Feast, The big red sea becomes divided; As we march along fighting our foes, We are being led by pillar of cloud by day,'' And pillar of fire by night. Our enemies, O ye folks, are thick with fury, Come out with your shields and arrows. Fighting our enemies all day long, We march forward as cloud-fire goes before us. The enemies we fought all day long, The big sea swallowed them like wild beast. Collect the quails, And draw the water that springs out of the rock.


On 1 April 2007, Michael Freund reported in the Jerusalem Post that the Bnei Menashe claim to have a chant they call Miriam's Prayer.[14] The words of the chant are identical to that of the Sikpui Song and the Post article is the first known print reference to Miriam's Prayer aka Sikpui Hla. Freund goes on to report that according to the Bnei Menashe "a century ago, when British missionaries first arrived in India's North-East, they were astonished to find that the local tribesmen worshipped one god, were familiar with many of the stories of the Bible, and were practicing a form of biblical Judaism". By all empirical accounts, the entire tribe were animists at the time of the arrival of the missionaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Menashe

DNA EVIDENCE IS PRESENT:

Background
The Kuki-Chin-Mizo population comprising traditionally endogamous tribal groups residing in the state of Mizoram, India claim their descent from the ten lost tribes of Israel that were exiled by the Assyrians. To ascertain their oral history, we analysed DNA markers comprising 15 autosomal microsatellite markers, 5 biallelic and 20 microsatellite markers on Y-chromosome and the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA sequence variations on 414 individuals belonging to 5 tribal communities from Mizoram (Hmar, Kuki, Mara, Lai and Lusei). The genetic profiles obtained were compared either with populations sharing Jewish ancestry or with local populations along the probable route of migration of the Jewish ancestry claimant Mizoram tribes.

Results
Y-STR analyses showed absence of the Cohen Modal Haplotype, the genetic signature of Cohanim origin. Y-chromosomal biallelic marker analyses revealed the presence of East and Southeast Asian-specific lineages and absence of haplogroup J predominant among Jewish populations. The mitochondrial DNA sequence analyses however revealed traces of genetic relatedness between the Jewish ancestry claimant Mizoram tribes and Near Eastern lineages. Autosomal analyses showed moderate degree of genetic differentiation among the different Mizoram tribes.

Conclusions
Migration of the lost tribes through China resulting in subsequent genetic admixture over a long period of time has probably diluted the extant gene pool of the Kuki-Chin-Mizo population. Although their paternal lineages do not exhibit any trace of Jewish ancestry, incidence of maternal Near Eastern lineages among the Mizoram tribals suggests their claim to Jewish ancestry cannot be excluded.

http://genomebiology.com/2004/6/1/P1

Everyone was animist if you look far back enough being animist does not exclude having been a member of the jewish tribes. There are accounts of them believing in one god then they were no longer animist, which one god tradition they belong to is of question and obviously what these rabbis had to pin-point with some definite signs leading to the judaism.

Its your bias that they are being used as cannon fodder, these people who were not originally from Israel would be allowed to live anywhere in Israel and leave whenever they wish. When religious jews of European descent live in areas under attack you don't claim the Israeli government are using them as cannon fodder. Think for a moment, where is this incoming fire coming from? The Palestinian territory. You yourself have said over and over that these bombs do not hit civilians and cause relatively few deaths. If what you say is true then they cannot be cannon fodder. Your turn around description conflicts with your assessment that palestinian fire doesn't hurt Israeli's, you make it sound as if you are disappointed that there are not 'original' jews living there as a target. All Israeli's who join the military will work in Gaza the same way all recruits into the British military had to go to Northern Ireland as their first tour of duty so there's nothing special in that.

If they are not receiving any financial support or work incentives then they must have gone because they believe themselves also to be Jews, there's no other explanation for it. If the account is correct then it would seem they were like the Ethiopian jews where there was strong evidence including the story of moving back to the place they were told is their home.

I'm wondering what criteria holds the Kaifeng Jews but it sounds as if there may be some strong reasons for the Mizo.

PS: You know you don't have to insult these people to discuss the issue. Its what leads people to believe you have deep seated hatred of jews, characterizations as 'stupid' etc are unnecessary, you are not in a flame war with jews or judaism. We're sharing information, challenging each other's ideas and trying to come to some understanding for ourselves here at sciforums, we're not at war with the object of the subject.

 

[S.A.M.]

So the fact that they found no evidence of a link with Jews, is evidence of a link with Jews?

Amazing and just the sort of conclusions possible on ziocaine.

Israeli social scientist Lev Grinberg told the BBC that "right wing Jewish groups wanted such conversions of distant people to boost the population in areas disputed by the Palestinians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Menashe#Controversial_DNA_tests

You know you don't have to insult these people to discuss the issue

hilarious. If people come to conclusions as the above what other response do they expect?

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see these same rabbis cultivate the "lost" tribe of Ephraim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Pashtun_descent_from_Israelites

Yup, that would be something to watch

 

[Bells]

My great, great, great Grandmother (mother's side) was Jewish. She converted to Catholicism when she married her husband (same amount great grandfather).. Which would probably make me more genetically Jewish than the Bnei Menashe..

Bnei Menashe in India were concerned about family members who they feared were in the middle of violent confrontations between settlers and IDF soldiers. They were also concerned because they had thought of Gaza as their future home once they made aliyah to Israel.

(Source)

I want somewhere with ocean views!

Seriously now..

No seriously..

I don't even know where to go with this one...

These people are miving to Israel and then undergoing an Orthodox conversion to errr make sure they really are Jewish...

In short, non-Jews being given the right of return because they had a vision that they were of the lost tribe of Israel after the formation of Israel and are allowed to move to Israel and convert..

Where can one go with this one?

 

[CptBork]

Hey, some people get this vision that the American dream happens to match with their own, and then often enough, despite all universal odds, they end up in America- go figure.

So based on S.A.M.'s thinking, first Israel is evil because it allegedly seeks genetic purity. Now it's evil because it accepts immigrants who have a religious connection to the Jewish people, even if it's all based on mythology and wishful thinking, and without verifying "genetic purity". Which one is the real reason Israel is evil?

Would it have been more appropriate for them to migrate via the Arabian peninsula, up through Egypt, into Gaza and then proclaim themselves descendants of Goliath the Greek? Would claiming descent from Obi Wan Kenobi get me free tickets to any Star Wars convention?

 

[ElectricFetus]

Sorry where does it say that?

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

The fact that Israelis have not succeeded is as much to blame as the Nazi failure to wipe out all the Jews.

Israel is not destroying the Palestinians, just trying to push them out or maintain a minority ratio of Israeli Arabs. The Palestinians have several surrounding countries of near identical or identical culture that are not under threat.

I already did. Its called Exodus Part Two and this will not be a mythological one.

Huh? No Please do explain it again, and this time not in phrase.

No just the part with education, brains and the ability to perform labour [although Palestinians and foreign labourers have long since predominated those aspects]

Oh a brain drain, well same as China and America and yet they seem to be chugging along.

Neither do I - Jewish donations to the Democratic party have risen to apparently 80% in the present so I see no reason why US aid to Israel will suffer. Thats not to say Israel will not suffer

Well first off its racist of you to think that just because Jews fund political parties that they are funding only to support Israel, there is a difference between Zionist and Jews in general and not all jews are Zionist or give a dam about Israel. Second if your going to negate your own statement then where does this end of funding for Israel come that you eluded to? :shrug:

At some point the rat becomes too expensive to trap with cheese.

So basically you admit you don't have a clue what your saying at this point?

 

[S.A.M.]

Welcome to Palestine!

Two other activists were deported overnight, leaving 82 still in Israeli custody awaiting flights back to home.

Most of the activists being held are French, but nationals from the United States, Belgium, Bulgaria, Holland and Spain were also in detention.

Thirteen British pro-Palestinian activists were being detained in Israel on Sunday after being arrested for attempting to stage a "solidarity visit" to the West Bank.

While most of those detained were put on flights back to their country of origin, a Foreign Office spokesman said that due to flights being booked for the summer holidays, the British participants might have to wait until Monday or Tuesday.

The British activists are mainly older campaigners, and include John Lynes, 83, a retired academic, and Audrey Gray, 77, a retired nurse and Methodist lay preacher, according to the organisers.

A lawyer who met some of the British activists on Saturday, Anan Odeh, complained that the conditions in which they were held was “shocking".

“They were put into trucks that they normally use to transfer prisoners,” he said in an interview posted online. “These metal trucks with metal chairs are very small. At least 12 people were put in one of these trucks and left there for a long time without food, drinks or air conditioning.

“After several hours they asked for food and drinks, but they got nothing. This to me is shocking to hear, as there are several men of age that were detained.”

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israel prime minister, told the cabinet on Sunday that Israel had acted “methodically” to thwart a new provocation.

“The agents provocateur tried to enter Israel - a considerable portion of them were stopped at their points of origin, some were stopped at Ben-Gurion airport and some, a minority, entered Israel and were detained here.

“I would like to make it clear that Israel will continue to frustrate provocations and attempts to break through our borders, whether by land, sea or air.”

Activists claim that banning foreigners from entering the West Bank is illegal and demonstrates that it too is subject to a blockade, as well as Gaza.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...28922/Israel-deports-dozens-of-activists.html

So Israel has proved unequivocally that not only Gaza but also the West Bank is under a military blockade.

 

[GeoffP]

Huh? No Please do explain it again, and this time not in phrase.

She means she's praying fervently for Judenraus, and not a 'mythological' one. (Because in her mind, there were never any Jews there anyway. Or anywhere else, presumably.)