I think that is more common in the Ashkenazi who show a greater propensity for genetic diseases than the others.
Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?
- Thread starter quantum_wave
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I think that is more common in the Ashkenazi who show a greater propensity for genetic diseases than the others.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Not just them, it seems to be a problem in the region:
The Middle East has uniquely high rates of cousin marriage among the world’s regions. Saudi Arabia, have rates of marriage to first or second cousins that may exceed 50%, Iraq was estimated in one study to have a rate of 33%, and figures for Iran and Afghanistan have been estimated in the range of 30–40%. Though on the lower end, Egypt and Turkey nevertheless have rates above 20%.
All states in the Persian Gulf currently require advance genetic screening for all prospective married couples. Qatar was the last Gulf nation to institute mandatory screening in 2009, mainly to warn related couples who are planning marriage about any genetic risks they may face. The current rate of cousin marriage there is 54%, an increase of 12–18% over the previous generation. A report by the Dubai-based Centre for Arab Genomic Studies (CAGS) in September 2009 found that Arabs have one of the world’s highest rates of genetic disorders, nearly two-thirds of which are linked to consanguinity. Research from CAGS and others suggests consanguinity is declining in Lebanon and Egypt and among Palestinians, but is increasing in Morocco, Mauritania and Sudan.
Dr. Ahmad Teebi, a genetics and pediatrics professor at Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar, links the increase in cousin marriage in Qatar and other Gulf states to tribal tradition and the region’s expanding economies. “Rich families tend to marry rich families, and from their own – and the rich like to protect their wealth,” he said. “So it’s partly economic, and it’s also partly cultural.” In regard to the higher rates of genetic disease in these societies, he says: “It’s certainly a problem,” but also that “The issue here is not the cousin marriage, the issue here is to avoid the disease.”
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Aren't the different cast populations a large pool? For example how many brahmin population for example? How many groups are there within the cast system anyway?
Its very complicated. While the British system of codification did not distinguish between jati [tribe, caste, hereditary group] and varna [occupation], the Indian caste system is comprised of hereditary groups which can straddle several varnas. Thus a person may be a soldier as well as an artisan but his gothra [unbroken male line from a common male ancestor] will define his tribe or community or geographical location. The combination of gothra-jati-varna makes a single "caste" sub group and marriages will tend to be endogamous within this group.
Still, with all the fresh blood pouring in, Indians are more genetically diverse than the Samaritans or the Arab Christians or the Parsis and perhaps, the Ashkenazi Jews. The Samaritans, I think are higly endogamous which is probably why there are only a thousand of them left today.
Bells
Staff member
It harks back to the "White Australia Policy" types, Lucy.
Surely you don't find this sort of thing acceptable? Surely you are not such a proponent of Israel that population control for Palestinians, to the point of denying Palestinian women access to proper health care is acceptable?
Oh my GAWD!
I don't care what you share with Sam. Your marriage, what you discuss, what you do for a living, anything about you.. it is none of my concern. You don't have to cite examples of how friendly you are with her. I really do not care..
What are you? In high school? You have this whole 'I'm more friends with her' thing going on and stamping ownership. You have made derogatory comments about myself, my family and my children in the past. As I said, you reap what you sow.
You brought up your marriage in the discussion. I made a joke about it. Get over yourself.
Do you hear the Government coming out in protest and saying it is not part of their policy?GeoffP said:
We are talking about a Government that was a part of the "Lost" program, to prevent assimilation of Jews into other cultures. It is pointing that way unfortunately.
You missed the point.
Israeli Government Minister stated that Jews who marry outside the religion, or more to the point, assimilate, are finishing what Hitler started. Those were his words.
I find it ridiculous personally.
I'll put it this way. How would it be received if the Canadian Government came out with a policy that whites should only marry other whites, blacks other blacks and natives other natives because to assimilate would be to destroy each culture and the only way to ensure the survival of each culture was to marry only within said culture? It would not be. How would any Minister in the Canadian Government be received if he made such a comment?
It is enough that it warranted the UN to make a comment in its reports on rights of women.
Back in 2007, it was around 5000 who were deemed ineligible to marry and had to travel overseas to marry. I will look some more into current figures when I can. But it is at the point where in 2008, the Rabbinical Court held that a deaf woman would not be allowed to convert to marry a Jewish man because she is deaf.
Civil marriage is the solution. The same goes for Indonesia and other countries that consider its citizens ineligible to marry because of their religion (or race or sexuality) or if they are unable to prove they are religious enough..
Hey!
Sarcastic typed laughter was my line. Get your own!
It would not differ now, would it? We are way past that now probably.
Bells
Staff member
Because, Asguard, it is women being denied the right to marry because they are unable to prove their maternal line sufficiently. Marriage laws are also male orientated as it is religious, so women are being denied equal rights to all things concerning marriage law (such as divorce, custody and property rights).
Really, read the UN report cited and the numerous links already posted in this thread.
bells i wonder if you have had a look at any of the resurch regarding marriage. Specifically health outcomes. Marriage has a strong protective effect on men in lots of areas, mental illness, even cardiovascular disease rates are lower in men who are married. The link isnt that hard to work out either, one componate of mental illness is social inclusion, women tend to me more socially conected than men, men tend to get most of there social conections through there female partner (husbands of there wives friends ect). Further more there is the direct surport that the partners provide eachother.
As far as CVD goes again its ovious, men are less likly to seek medical aid if they dont have there partner winging at them (i wonder if they arnt secretly grateful for this because they can "blame it on the wife" rather than apearing weak).
The protective effects on women are less well established but some of the theories as to why its protective work just as well for women (the direct emotional surport for instance). There isnt enough evidence on defacto relationships yet because they havent been around as long to gauge if they carry the same protective effects but my guess would be its probable if its a stable long term relationship.
So bells, concidering that mens health and even there lives depend on stable long term relationships why isnt the male partner who also wants to get married relivent?
As far as CVD goes again its ovious, men are less likly to seek medical aid if they dont have there partner winging at them (i wonder if they arnt secretly grateful for this because they can "blame it on the wife" rather than apearing weak).
The protective effects on women are less well established but some of the theories as to why its protective work just as well for women (the direct emotional surport for instance). There isnt enough evidence on defacto relationships yet because they havent been around as long to gauge if they carry the same protective effects but my guess would be its probable if its a stable long term relationship.
So bells, concidering that mens health and even there lives depend on stable long term relationships why isnt the male partner who also wants to get married relivent?
Bells
Staff member
In this instance, yes. Because it is not he being stamped with "ineligible for marriage". She is. And that remains unless she can either prove her maternal Jewish line going back for generations or she undergoes a conversion that complies with the Rabbinical Court. Or she and her husband to be head overseas for a civil marriage.
The "guys" are not being forced to prove their Jewishness by going back 4+ generations. The women are. It affects marriage, divorce, custody and property rights in marriage.
I am trying hard to figure out how you have come to this conclusion or leap in this thread and I have to admit, I am failing.
==Edit to add to address Asguard's next point==
Maybe you can email that to the Israeli Government, since you know, they're the ones denying civil marriage.
As for the religious laws that deem women ineligible to marry because she may not be Jewish enough, I am sure you can also send them the evidence on how men may be affected by such laws..
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Have you heard of Kaifeng Jews? Its a small jewish community in Henan province. Well it seems most of this group has assimilated into the Han Chinese culture but there were a few whom for one reason or another were discovered, or perhaps they still had family members who remembered there jewish connection. Israel has discovered this group and now some of them have made aliyah. Watch as they make the trip back to the homeland, Israel, 'Welcome Home' balloons, yamaka and all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edhtdoPukk0
A news report on the whole thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vH7pWQ5sWE&feature=related
Notice how she says that in Israel being jewish is according to the mother (matrilineal) and in china its according to the father. Since its a matrilineal tradition I don't know how they got around that. How can you be jewish from a patrilineal line? I know people who's father is jewish and mother goyim and they are still technically not jewish.
I don't know why but I find the whole thing marvelously hilarious!
I know you're going to lose your mind over this one. LOL! Try and see the funny side.
And here is a chinese jewish, 'you must remember your jewish', wedding in Israel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emmy82tFT30&feature=related
The more I think about this the more I believe it deserves its own thread.
On a more serious note, orthodox religious jews protests against 'zionist' Israel. This one will surprise you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh2mdPbYnZI&feature=related
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How do you quantify the concept of genetic diversity? How the heck are you supposed to know who's "more diverse"? Do they take thousands of people from each of these ethnicities, sequence their entire DNA chains and then look for the statistic fluctuations? I haven't heard of any studies done in this kind of detail, just personal opinions about who is and who isn't an inbred yokel.
There are masses of studies on this stuff. Usually endogamy exhibits as genetic diseases
'Genetic ailments among Indians due to endogamy'
Medical genetics of Jewish people
High frequency of factor V Leiden mutation in Parsis--a highly endogamous population in India.
Gene mapping of populations:
India's gene map reveals disease geography [link]
See India's Genome Variation database: http://www.igvdb.res.in/
Its one of the hottest fields in gene mapping at present with lots of data coming out constantly regarding population variations
@Lucysnow:
Ever read Deuteronomy? Notice all the missing mothers? I have a feeling that matrilineal lineage in Jews is probably a later innovation, one that wasn't present in the original paters of Judea.
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Back on topic:
So how do they justify this when so many American Zionists literally pour money into the settlements?
And re:the Airtilla
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You would have to systematically enumerate all possible genetic diseases before you could draw firm conclusions on this. A higher prevalence of known diseases doesn't say anything about the prevalence of unknown diseases.
Your quote from the source on Jewish genetics simply says that Ashkenazi Jews have a more uniform genetic spectrum, as opposed to Sephardic Jews. By your own logic and from reading your quoted segment, Sephardic Jews can be just as "inbred" as Ashkenazis, but this inbreeding occurred amongst the populations in the lands of their respective ancestors. Going into the future, intermarriage amongst the Sephardics would be less problematic than for Ashkenazis, but as I understand it marriage between the two groups is also quite common, so that would solve any potential problems.
As for the Hapsburgs, yes- they, like virtually all the royal families of Europe, were plagued by inbreeding, genetic diseases and retardation, and their pathetically poor governance reflected this fact. I wasn't aware the Ashkenazis had such a small population to serve as breeding stock, that their practices were comparable to those amongst a few thousand royals.
If you are interested in population genetics, we can start a thread on endogamy and Ashkenazi Jews and how they differ from Sephardic and Oriental Jews in Biology. Your recommendation for outbreeding of Ashkenazi Jews is not a new one
For the present, lets focus on Palestine policy and the US
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Sam
In all fairness Sam you were the one who introduced inbreeding factors among jews and didn't find it off-topic then so you should at least answer CptBork or it will look like another attempt at evading having your premise scrutinized which is precisely what this site is about.
Sam: Ever read Deuteronomy? Notice all the missing mothers? I have a feeling that matrilineal lineage in Jews is probably a later innovation, one that wasn't present in the original paters of Judea.
Well actually that isn't really true:
The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism, (ger tzedek, "righteous convert"). The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) derives this law from the Torah, SPECIFICALLY DEUTERONOMY 7:3–4: "Thy daughter thou shalt not give to his son, nor shalt thou take his daughter to thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods." This rule was clearly accepted by the 2nd century CE, with virtually no debate over it appearing in the Talmud. Orthodox opinion regards this rule as dating from receipt of the Torah at Mount Sinai, but most non-Orthodox scholars regard it as originating either at the time of Ezra (4th Century BCE) or during the period of Roman rule in the 1st–2nd centuries CE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism
In other words the religious text says do not marry your daughters to non jewish sons because they will not keep the jewish tradition and 'follow other gods'.
In all fairness Sam you were the one who introduced inbreeding factors among jews and didn't find it off-topic then so you should at least answer CptBork or it will look like another attempt at evading having your premise scrutinized which is precisely what this site is about.
Sam: Ever read Deuteronomy? Notice all the missing mothers? I have a feeling that matrilineal lineage in Jews is probably a later innovation, one that wasn't present in the original paters of Judea.
Well actually that isn't really true:
The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism, (ger tzedek, "righteous convert"). The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) derives this law from the Torah, SPECIFICALLY DEUTERONOMY 7:3–4: "Thy daughter thou shalt not give to his son, nor shalt thou take his daughter to thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods." This rule was clearly accepted by the 2nd century CE, with virtually no debate over it appearing in the Talmud. Orthodox opinion regards this rule as dating from receipt of the Torah at Mount Sinai, but most non-Orthodox scholars regard it as originating either at the time of Ezra (4th Century BCE) or during the period of Roman rule in the 1st–2nd centuries CE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism
In other words the religious text says do not marry your daughters to non jewish sons because they will not keep the jewish tradition and 'follow other gods'.
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Its matrilineal. The reason why I thought it strange she pointed out her jewish tradition passing from the father is because:
'In Israel, the status quo is that the Orthodox definition is followed: the child of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother may immigrate to Israel (and may claim rights under the Law of Return), but will be registered in official documents as a non-Jew.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism
And yet she has made aliyah and, as we have seen in one of the links, a member of the female members from kaifeng even married another Israeli non-kaifeng jew in a jewish ceremony.
'Matrilineality in Judaism is the view that people born of a Jewish mother are themselves Jewish. The Torah does not explicitly discuss the conferring of Jewish status through matrilineality, and in apparent contrast to this position, the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) provides many examples of Israelite men whose children by foreign women appear to have been accepted as Israelite. However, Jewish oral tradition codified in Mishnah by the 2nd century CE maintains that matrilineality was always the rule, and adduces indirect textual evidence from the Torah, with the implicit assumption that the women in question converted to Judaism.The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism, (ger tzedek, "righteous convert")'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism
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Bells
Staff member
Hmm okay..
I thought Cohen was one of the few exceptions.
Although membership in the Jewish community has, since at least the second century CE, been passed maternally (see: Who is a Jew?), tribal identity, and membership in the group that originally comprised the Jewish priesthood (Cohen or Kohen; plural: Cohanim or Kohanim), has been patrilineal.
(Source)
(Source)
And for a Cohen to marry, the rules were marginally different.. For example:
Irina Plotnikov cannot marry the man she loves, Shmuel Cohen, even though she is Jewish according to halakha (Jewish religious law). A rabbinic court in Jerusalem ruled recently that even though Plotnikov is Jewish, she is not eligible to marry a Cohen since her father is not Jewish. According to Jewish tradition, people with the surname Cohen are descendants of the priests that served in the Temple in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago.
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After presenting documents and hearing testimony from witnesses on Plotnikov's behalf, the rabbinic court confirmed that Plotnikov is Jewish and single and ruled that "she can be married in accordance with Jewish tradition, except to a Cohen."
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Rabbi Farber says that girls from religious families in Israel who were born as a result of in vitro fertilization can expect to face a similar problem. The reason for this is that such families made sure to use sperm from non-Jewish donors, to avoid accidental forbidden marriage.
(Source)
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After presenting documents and hearing testimony from witnesses on Plotnikov's behalf, the rabbinic court confirmed that Plotnikov is Jewish and single and ruled that "she can be married in accordance with Jewish tradition, except to a Cohen."
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Rabbi Farber says that girls from religious families in Israel who were born as a result of in vitro fertilization can expect to face a similar problem. The reason for this is that such families made sure to use sperm from non-Jewish donors, to avoid accidental forbidden marriage.
(Source)
The article also states that if they do marry in a civil ceremony overseas and have a child, then that child would be Jewish and their marriage could end up being recognised.
Which is why I assumed there may be a few exceptions.
I guess their culture sees it differently..
Which is interesting in and of itself. While the Rabbinical courts in Israel may view it differently, their cultural beliefs seem to be stronger.
Things may be changing though.. Being a child of a Jewish mother isn't enough anymore
For example:
Hillary Rubin felt she was living out her ancestors' dream when she decided to move to Israel in 2006. Now she says she is being forced to leave the country to fulfill her own dream - getting married.
"Zionism runs in my family," the Detroit native says, adding that her grandfather's uncle was Zionist leader Nahum Sokolow.
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Rubin, who was raised in a Conservative household, produced letters from four Conservative rabbis and one Chabad rabbi attesting to her Jewishness. But the Herzliya Rabbinate said the letters were not enough and asked her to bring ketubot, or religious wedding contracts, as well as birth or death certificates of her mother, grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother.
"It was made very clear that without ketubot and without birth certificates from four generations, I would need to go to the Beit Din [local rabbinical court]," Rubin told Anglo File this week. "I told him, time and time again, that my grandparents are Shoah survivors [and thus their ketubot no longer exist] and I was told that wasn't his problem."
The Herzliya Rabbinate responded that it kept to strict standards "of Moses and Israel" for affirming one's faith.
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Rubin fears the rabbinical court might declare her a non-Jew and thus decided to get married without the Rabbinate's blessing. Instead, Rubin and her Johannesburg-born fiance' Craig Glaser will tie the knot in a Conservative ceremony on a moshav in the Sharon region in two weeks. Since Conservative weddings are not recognized by the state, they plan to fly for one day to Cyprus for a civil marriage - an option used by many Israeli couples unable, or unwilling, to satisfy the Rabbinate's demands.
The rabbinical court does not actually declare somebody a non-Jew without proof of their belonging to another religion, but Rubin would still run the risk of being left in the situation of not being officially Jewish by the state's standards should she turn to them.
"At this point, I no longer want to play be their rules. I want to fight what they're doing," Rubin, who observes Shabbat and keeps kosher, said.
When Anglo File called the Rabbinate's marriage department this week, a man who said he was its director but declined to state his name said he remembered the case. He said the couple was referred to the rabbinical court in Tel Aviv to have their Jewishness affirmed, and that before this is done he cannot let them get married. When he learned they had decided to get married in Cyprus to avoid the rabbinical court, he said nonchalantly: "Good for them. We are only marrying people according to the law of Moses and Israel."
Rubin and her fiance' - whose documents were accepted by the rabbinate as valid proof of Jewishness - did not even want to try to convince the rabbinical court that she is a Jew. "I can't provide them with the documents they want. I am the granddaughter of four Holocaust survivors, any documents my grandparents may have had from their families we don't have anymore ... Who has a death certificate from somebody who was gassed to death? These things are frustrating because my grandparents were persecuted for being Jewish, and here I am being told I'm not exactly Jewish."
She is also concerned they might not declare her Jewish because her parents are divorced and she can no longer provide their ketuba. The facts that her parents' get, or bill of divorce, was prepared by a Conservative rabbi and that her mother has since remarried a Catholic would further lead the rabbis to deny her their official stamp of approval, she said.
(Source)
"Zionism runs in my family," the Detroit native says, adding that her grandfather's uncle was Zionist leader Nahum Sokolow.
---------------------------------------------------
Rubin, who was raised in a Conservative household, produced letters from four Conservative rabbis and one Chabad rabbi attesting to her Jewishness. But the Herzliya Rabbinate said the letters were not enough and asked her to bring ketubot, or religious wedding contracts, as well as birth or death certificates of her mother, grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother.
"It was made very clear that without ketubot and without birth certificates from four generations, I would need to go to the Beit Din [local rabbinical court]," Rubin told Anglo File this week. "I told him, time and time again, that my grandparents are Shoah survivors [and thus their ketubot no longer exist] and I was told that wasn't his problem."
The Herzliya Rabbinate responded that it kept to strict standards "of Moses and Israel" for affirming one's faith.
-----------------------------------------------
Rubin fears the rabbinical court might declare her a non-Jew and thus decided to get married without the Rabbinate's blessing. Instead, Rubin and her Johannesburg-born fiance' Craig Glaser will tie the knot in a Conservative ceremony on a moshav in the Sharon region in two weeks. Since Conservative weddings are not recognized by the state, they plan to fly for one day to Cyprus for a civil marriage - an option used by many Israeli couples unable, or unwilling, to satisfy the Rabbinate's demands.
The rabbinical court does not actually declare somebody a non-Jew without proof of their belonging to another religion, but Rubin would still run the risk of being left in the situation of not being officially Jewish by the state's standards should she turn to them.
"At this point, I no longer want to play be their rules. I want to fight what they're doing," Rubin, who observes Shabbat and keeps kosher, said.
When Anglo File called the Rabbinate's marriage department this week, a man who said he was its director but declined to state his name said he remembered the case. He said the couple was referred to the rabbinical court in Tel Aviv to have their Jewishness affirmed, and that before this is done he cannot let them get married. When he learned they had decided to get married in Cyprus to avoid the rabbinical court, he said nonchalantly: "Good for them. We are only marrying people according to the law of Moses and Israel."
Rubin and her fiance' - whose documents were accepted by the rabbinate as valid proof of Jewishness - did not even want to try to convince the rabbinical court that she is a Jew. "I can't provide them with the documents they want. I am the granddaughter of four Holocaust survivors, any documents my grandparents may have had from their families we don't have anymore ... Who has a death certificate from somebody who was gassed to death? These things are frustrating because my grandparents were persecuted for being Jewish, and here I am being told I'm not exactly Jewish."
She is also concerned they might not declare her Jewish because her parents are divorced and she can no longer provide their ketuba. The facts that her parents' get, or bill of divorce, was prepared by a Conservative rabbi and that her mother has since remarried a Catholic would further lead the rabbis to deny her their official stamp of approval, she said.
(Source)
I would be interested to learn how the Jews from China bypassed the laws though..