Did Nothing Create Everything?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by SetiAlpha6, Oct 21, 2019.

  1. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    I am thinking in terms of the ways in which Atheism asserts itself and wins converts by the propagation of lies and misrepresentation. And also how the Naturalistic Scientific community kind of acts cult like when it disallows any other explanations other than its own Naturalistic explanations. And even seems to actively suppress all other viewpoints.

    It can be extremely cult like!
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  3. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    There really isn’t a “conversion” process with atheism as it is with religion. When I was an atheist, it was a conclusion that I came to, not a conversion from religion to atheism. I have heard the term however “deconversion,” used by some atheists who’ve abandoned religion and/or their belief in God.

    Why do you dismiss scientific evidence? Do you feel that if you accept science, that it will be a betrayal of your faith?
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  5. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Thank you so much for your comments!

    I do not dismiss scientific evidence. I see no problems between science and faith.

    I do question, however, the interpretation of the scientific evidence, like everyone else does.

    Don’t you do the same thing?
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  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    IOW - you're rerunning the standard bs line, without even a new twist. Y--A---W---N---!!
  8. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Sorry! I sit corrected!

    So under what circumstances would a supernatural explanation be allowed into the pier review process without immediate rejection or suppression? Or perhaps even with the person being fired or demoted?

    And why are both intimidation and shaming used so extensively?
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  9. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    The peer review process deals with evidence. Can there be evidence of something supernatural?
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Why? Most things people believe cannot be proved.
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    What do you mean by entropy being overcome? There is nothing in Big Bang theory that makes entropy reduce with time, so far as I am aware.
  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Are you channelling Trump? Science is the discipline of explaining nature in terms of nature. So obviously it does not entertain non-natural explanations. If it did, it would not be science.
  13. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    And that is why science can be, at times, so limited and can even become cult like in behavior.

    I keep hearing the same old crap, where people say there is no evidence for God, when all they are really doing is disallowing all possible evidence a priori because of their own preference and bias.

    It often comes down to... there is no evidence for God because I do not want there to be any, or because they have decided that there just can’t be any evidence for God!

    Sadly it can come down to a willful blindness. And of course Christians can be guilty of exactly the same thing with Science.

    When a Theist does this to science, the Atheist can see it like the noon day sun, but when they do the same thing in reverse, they can be completely blind to what they are doing.

    We all have bias that can blind us. I do also.

    There is perhaps a difference, that seems apparent to me at least. The Atheist seems more limited or confined by his world view than the Theist IMO.

    The Atheist must restrict their world view to only natural process. Like a Catholic must restrict their world view to whatever the Pope teaches.

    But Naturalism cannot even be proven to be true!

    Please prove scientifically that the only things we can know, come from the study of nature. Prove that nothing else exists. It seems to set up a kind of circular reasoning, that just goes on forever. Like a hamster running on the same wheel for its whole life.

    But the Theist who studies all things for themselves can study, embrace, and understand all natural processes plus also include supernatural processes and actions as well.

    I am sure you know all this already!
  14. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    I was thinking that entropy is constant from the Big Bang until now. And from now on into the future. On a universe scale and also in smaller subsystems of the universe.

    For example, that the entire universe will eventually experience a total heat death in the future. And our Sun, as a subsystem example, will also suffer a heat death far before that.

    Entropy also describes the gradual decline of order or complexity into disorder.

    Do you know of even one chemical reaction where entropy does not win, given enough time, after the initial reaction has taken place?
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  15. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    In my opinion, yes.

    The creation of specific life from dead chemicals is real evidence for the creation of life by God.

    But, of course, it can also be interpreted in other ways, especially when the probability calculations are discarded, for convenience. Desperate people do desperate and illogical things.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Perhaps you keep hearing that because there is never any reasonable evidence offered.

    There have been a number of threads here where folk claim evidence or evidence is called for and frankly I have yet to see anything coming close to what one could reasonably call evidence.

    Maybe you could present what you claim is evidence and we could comment upon it.

    And atheism is not a religion.

    And perhaps tell me why there are so many gods, tell me why Jesus was one of many human gods all claiming similar characteristics , and why the characteristics happily parallel the behaviour and attributes of the Sun which suggest all these human gods including Jesus were based in astrology.

    And tell me why it makes sense to you that an entity you call god would come out of eternity to create a finite universe perhaps in excess of a 100 billion light years diameter to select just one planet to intelligently design his human pets that look apparently like him and then pursue a convoluted path to first destroy most of his pets by flood apparently and then send himself in the form of his son to offer a machinery to forgive those , the descendants of those that he had not murdered in aforementioned flood, and then after death rising in three days, happily matching the sun mid winter, to get back home when he, his "son" and the new member of the group "the holy ghost" continue to live not involving themselves in human lives, happy to witness millions dieing in wars, happy to witness injustice and inequity, but occasionally popping infor the odd miracle taking care not to be seen.

    Yes for anyone to accept the claims of a theist I can see why they just may seek some evidence as after all the whole story does sound unbelievable, something that the only way a human could accept it would to have it implanted at such a young age the brain had not developed sufficiently to exercise rational assessment.
    But please one bit of evidence that there is support for the myth that a god exists in eternity and we can take it from there.
  17. gmilam Valued Senior Member

  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    And remember the limits and requirements of evidence have been set by both our laws and our courts, two forms..beyond a reasonable doubt and such that a reasonable man can accept...and in science ..repeatable and testable...civil law is the easiest..that which a reasonable man would accept...see if you can match the easy one.
  19. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Thanks so much for your comments Alex.

    Am I really allowed to give evidence for God on this forum or will I just be shut down out of fear?

    Won’t I just be accused of proselytizing and preaching? I have been accused of doing that before.

    I would have to post Bible verses, is that allowed?

    Or does censorship rule the day here?

    Do I have to ask permission from someone?
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    You are most welcome.
    Probably not these atheists simply will not accept the truth..you do know that once alone and free from peer pressure atheist pray for forgiveness and plead with God not to send them to hell...but look as to the evidence just be subtle..rather than use the Bible knowing they will reject that for sure...why not provide other evidence outside the Bible so they can't say "oh you are just using a book written by ancient folk who did not even know where the Sun went at night"...you can head them off by offering evidence of the eternity where God lives or evidence how he created such a huge universe just using his mind or whatever machinery he used..I don't know thats thats why I look forward to looking at your evidence.
    That's why you offer evidence outside the Bible.
    No one can make those accusations if you are presenting real evidence can they...and remember I am on your side..I want evidence of the truth so I will complain if folk try and shut you down and prevent tabling of your real evidence..I am a reasonable man..and as such all you have to do is make a case that I can accept..how easy is that?
    I am sure that is allowed but the problem is the Bible has lost its credibility due to countless mistakes, presenting horrible morality, slave ownership, wife beating, killing folk who don't toe the line, and presenting the rambling of fools as reliable...and add to that it has been translated edited does not help...and most of it we don't have names of authors or their qualifications. And you only have to look at the first line...it publishes an account of a witness to creation who we know could not have been there..add to all that we find the garden of Eden, Adam and even the flood stories were all lifted from the Sumarians...there are clay tablets from that time which offer hard physical proof of that..check it out..google and find the truth...so I hope you can understand the Bible just does not have any credibility so it's best not to use it...it is a wonderful book for what it is which is not a book of facts...it's more in the way of literature and myth so not appropriate for proving anything really.
    I think the thing to remember is if you want to make a claim to back it up with evidence and present it in a fashion where it does not sound like it's just some unsupported belief that you want others to believe just because you believe it...again present evidence outside the Bible and if you want to suggest something is factual ...give evidence that a reasonable person finds acceptable.
    I think if you follow my suggestions you will be ok, so go ahead present some non biblical evidence and if you come over like you are preaching I will point that out so you can adjust and not offend anyone.
    You can do it.
    Nevertheless I really would like to have you answer my questions...they seem reasonable...and I expect all of them can be answered simply without going to the Bible..like how do you know a god exists in eternity and why did he pop out of eternity to create such a big universe for just one tiny planet...and for your answers I am happy just to have your unsupported opinion...please go thru them and offer an answer...I would really like to know why there were so many human gods like Jesus all with attributes like the Sun.
    Come on not to do so can only suggest you have never thought about these matters...you have thought about them haven't you.
    StrangerInAStrangeLand and elte like this.
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Prove that God exists (I give you permission).

    Your idea of proof seems to be that whatever you say is proof. Life appeared and therefore it must have come from God. You haven't even begun to prove that there is a God.

    Your ideas regarding the Big Bang and entrophy and how the Universe will end also show that you have no knowledge based ideas on this subject.

    Keep in mind that when "faith" or "belief" is involved that because there is no evidence. When evidence is involved no faith is required. I don't have to "believe" in gravity. Observation/evidence makes that unnecessary.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  22. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    I can try and present the evidence I have here for your review, if you think it would be any value to you.

    But perhaps the best thing would be if I could send a copy of the 32 GB flash drive I have out to you somehow, at my cost. It has about 1900 files on it, last time I checked. It has Google Earth links, Photographs, Video, Documents, etc.

    The thing is, I don’t want to put your privacy at risk in any way. And I don’t know how to get your mailing address without risking that on this site. Perhaps you know of a way?

    Two weeks ago, I gave a 2 hr presentation to about 40 people on the material I have and gave away about 38 copies of the flash drive at my expense!

    I doubt I can answer all of your excellent questions.

    Here is the kind of evidence I offer...

    Evidence that still exists on the ground today for the Bible account where Moses was given the Ten Commandments by God.

    I can provide Google Earth coordinates, on the ground Photography, and the Bible texts that describe what happened there.

    It would be for your review, and you would have to decide, and of course, come to your own conclusions!

    So, is that worth your time at all?
  23. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    I can only provide the evidence I have for you to review, so you can decide for yourself.

    Fair Enough?

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