Did Nothing Create Everything?

I will start off with the following description for your review...

EVIDENCE - On the Northwest side of the Jabal al Lawz mountain range there is a massive 60’x40’x20’ Rock that has been cracked down the middle and which shows extensive water erosion inside the crack from the bottom up. This site also shows clear evidence of massive water erosion cascading down the hill the Rock rests on and out into the plain below. The top layer of smaller rocks in these water eroded areas has been washed away. The erosion area is clearly visible in Satellite Photography. This Site matches exactly the Biblical description of “The Rock” that Moses struck in Rephidim at Mount Horeb. Real physical evidence left behind from the miracles that happened there and real physical evidence for the existence of God. The Altar that Moses built there (ADONAI Nissi, or ADONAI is my Banner), mentioned in Exodus 17:15 is still there today, with ash remains as well. The Altar is located on the West side of the Split Rock.

And I will try and post as many on the ground photos of the Site, and related Bible references as I can.
As always, please decide for yourself...
The rock was probably a fountain in the garden of a lost civilization who were wiped out by the Younger Dryas flooding event often thought to be the basis for the flood myths written about in Sumeria and later incorporated by the Hebrews in their Bible.
It is thought this ancient civilization constructed many such fountains to beautify and irrigate their gardens. It is thought that they did not construct such fountains for agriculture where it clear systems were designed to minimise water evaporation unlike these mystical rock fountains. Many of their ancient fountains have been incorporated into local myths as locals were mystified as to how the water came up thru the rock but it is thought the original metallic piping was taken in the first few years after the impact event as mining and metal working was confined to coastal cities which were all of course wiped out. This rock is irrefutable evidence of the lost civilization.
This artist impression is incorrect as there was considerable top soil gardens with many plants and life size gold statue s which of course have been removed..it is believed that although very technically advanced the lost civilization could only use gold and used to call free copper dirty gold and only used it for children's toys unfortunately none of these have survived proving these ancient folk did not think enough of them to bury them with their dead.

Do you believe that Nothing created Everything?
No. To believe that, I would need evidence that it occurred. Just like I'd need evidence to believe that God Did It.

The belief that there was once absolutely nothing. And that nothing happened to that nothing for an eternity until the nothing magically exploded (for no reason), creating time, everything, and everywhere. Then a bunch of the exploded everything magically rearranged itself into highly organized molecular elements (again, for no reason whatsoever), and then into extremely complex self-replicating molecular bio-machines which then turned into dinosaurs. And all of the trillions of processes needed to pull all of this off had to defy entropy on a scale never before seen in empirical science.

If someone actually believes this, I would like to see them offer some empirical proof for it.
Me too!

The thing is, if somebody says something happened magically, like you're saying here, I'd need to see some evidence of magic. The evolution of complex life on earth appears to have happened naturally, not magically. You've heard of the theory of evolution, haven't you?

And after the Big Bang, what empirical evidence is there that entropy can be overcome?
Somebody else corrected you on this error. I hope you now recognise your mistake. The early universe was in relatively low entropy state, and entropy has been increasing ever since then, just as the laws of thermodynamics say it should. There's nothing that needs "overcoming".

nd yes entropy works on the universe as a whole but it also works on smaller subsystems in the universe as well. I am sure you know this. And undeniably on bio-machines every second of the day. All we have to do is stop eating. Or stop breathing. Only the intelligence designed into of our mind keeps entropy in check. Seems pretty obvious to every person on the planet.
It sounds like you don't have a very good understanding of entropy. You know, for instance, that it only has to increase in a closed system? A person, for instance, is not a closed system. We eat food, like you say. We get energy from our environment, and we emit waste heat and other waste out to that environment. Fighting entropy in this case has nothing to do with intelligence.

Because both Atheism and Naturalism are faith positions! They are both religions, even cults!
No. Atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. No faith is required not to believe something. When I say Mickey Mouse isn't a real mouse, that's not a statement based on faith.
I do not dismiss scientific evidence. I see no problems between science and faith.
Sure you do. You dismiss the big bang theory and evolution, for starters, for faith-based reasons.

The Atheist must restrict their world view to only natural process.
No. It's possible to be an atheist and believe in all kinds of woo that doesn't involve gods, as such. Mind you, that's a sort of inconsistent kind of atheism - the kind espoused by people who haven't really thought things through to their logical conclusion.

Like a Catholic must restrict their world view to whatever the Pope teaches.

But Naturalism cannot even be proven to be true!
Do you think Catholicism does any better when it comes to proof that it's true? Or your preferred brand of Christianity (whatever it is)?

If you think it's necessary to prove Naturalism true, you're kind of missing the point. Methodological naturalism only says that we should assume there's a natural explanation for everything until such time as that assumption proves untenable. So far, it all seems to be working out just fine - no need to introduce superfluous gods.

Please prove scientifically that the only things we can know, come from the study of nature. Prove that nothing else exists.
You have the onus of proof on the wrong person. The default is that nothing exists unless you have some evidence for its existence. That means that if you say God exists, or that the Rock of Moses exists, or whatever, it's up to you to persuade the rest of us that you're right.

But the Theist who studies all things for themselves can study, embrace, and understand all natural processes plus also include supernatural processes and actions as well.
Name one supernatural process that you have studied, embraced and understand. Show us - using suitable evidence - why this cannot be a natural process.

The creation of specific life from dead chemicals is real evidence for the creation of life by God.
I don't recall you providing any evidence for Creation of anything by a God.

And this thing about "dead chemicals": what do you mean by that? Is your body not made of these "dead chemicals" you speak of? Or perhaps you think you have special "living chemicals" in you? Or, perhaps you have some positive evidence for the existence of soul? Whichever it is, I'm not seeing you making an evidence-based case for your belief.
There's a long history of people claiming to have identified specific places as the locations of biblical events. How many people have claimed to have found the remains of Noah's Ark, or remnants of the One True Cross, for instance?

What you are doing is obvious cherry picking. You start out with the answer you want to get to, then you go off and try to make the geography fit the story, one way or another. Find a split rock in the desert? Need a magical fountain? Voila! The rock must have been the source of the magic fountain! Even better if you can find some other stuff in the general vicinity that you can shoehorn to fit the story you want to tell.

But let's suppose that, somehow, you do manage to show that this guy called Moses led a bunch of people through the desert along a particular route - and I point out that the scholarly consensus is that nobody has found such a thing yet. Then what? How are you going to prove that water miraculously flowed from your chosen rock? How are you going to show that any of the miracles in Exodus actually took place as advertised? And even if you somehow get past those hurdles, how are you going to show that your preferred God was responsible for any of this?
So how did specified complex life, even a single cell come about in a Universe with entropy increasing over time?
Entropy is not a problem. Cells are not closed systems. Move on.

Each human cell has about 100 trillion atoms specifically organized to function as a bio mechanical machine.

What natural series of chemical processes have been proven to create living cells? Even the simplest living cell?
We don't know yet. Scientists are working on it. We do know some things, though. For example, chemical processes alone can easily form amino acids under the right conditions; we've observed it in the lab and in studies of comets (to take one example).

But you're setting up a false dichotomy here. What you're trying to argue is: if scientists can't explain exactly how life began, then God Did It. But that doesn't follow at all. God is not the default if scientists don't know the answer yet. You don't get to have your God of the Gaps. If you say God Did It, it's up to you to explain how and when he did it, and present your own supporting evidence. How's that coming along for you?

Also please explain how and why so many scientific frauds have been allowed into the pretense of “legitimate” science. Especially with the pier review system up and running to prevent them? And why they were still used to persuade and knowingly deceive the public long after they were debunked?
Science is done by people. People are fallible. Some people are dishonest. It's no different in science than it is in religion. Tell us why there are so many religious frauds, when the good priests have a system that ought to prevent them from happening? And why are they still used to knowingly deceive the public long after they have been debunked?

The reality of the miracles God performed on the Earth at Mt Sinai, breaks down every argument against God, in my opinion.
Which of God's miracles on Mt Sinai have been verified? Where's the proof?

You really need to study evolution, just a bit. If you keep ignoring it, you make yourself look ignorant, like this:

That is one of the things that very clearly distinguishes them from all known random processes.
Evolution is not a (purely) random process. Think about natural selection, for starters. Not random.

Everything you just described, regarding life, requires the intelligent manipulation of elements to pull off and to maintain their continuing function and existence.

These systems are interdependent and have to all work together, with no goal in mind at all.
Your use of the word "goal" betrays the trap of teleological thinking that you've fallen into. You think that everything has a pre-destined purpose, planned out by somebody or something. Really, though, goals are ideas that humans use to try to make sense of the world. A cell doesn't have "goals", as such, apart from the ones that we humans impose on them as a convenient metaphor. We might talk of "selfish genes" "trying" to survive to the next generation, but that's an athropomorphic metaphor for what is actually happening. Again, a good starting point is to consider what actually happens with natural selection. There is no pre-defined "goal" in natural selection. Life does not "aim" to become more complex, or more intelligent, or stronger or faster, or whatever. Nature forces it along those paths.

Why would a cell care if it lives or dies?
How could a cell "care" about anything at all? Isn't "care" just another human concept you're trying to nail onto something? Realise that "care" in such a context is a metaphor.

Why would it even want to survive, it has no mind, or goals to win the Lottery or anything else? Just a stupid question.
Not a stupid question. Creationists and teleologists just like you stumble over this stuff regularly. The problem is your worldview: the one that says that everything must have a "purpose" and that God imposed "goals" on all things, and stuff like that. You struggle to cope with the notion that there's actually no Big Plan. Worse, you seem uninterested in even considering the alternative.
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Entropy does prohibit the creation of life from non life because there are no natural processes that have both the ability to overcome entropy and also the ability to create life
What's your argument or evidence for that statement?

See, the thing is, you're already on the record as having a poor understanding about how entropy applies to life and evolution. But here you are, again, making overconfident pronouncements about what is and isn't possible in nature. Why do you do that?
So it would appear to me that Science assumes that God never acts in history, because of its method of investigation. Which is what I have always thought it did.

If God is real and He does act in history, isn’t Science going to be blind to that hypothesis?
The problem that you're going to have with scientists is that you'll need to to provide convincing evidence that a historical event must have been due to God, at least at the level of more likely than not. Probably that means that you'll need to show that your chosen historical event (a) actually occurred in the way you claim it did, and (b) could not have come about by natural means. It's a high hurdle, but extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

And if children buy into the philosophy of Naturalism at an early age, like they are programmed to do in the U.S., isn’t that potentially blinding them to a large part of reality?
Seriously? The US?! You're talking about the One Nation Under God, are you not? A nation in which about 75% of people or more self-identify as Christian. If there's Naturalistic programming taking place there, the teachers are doing a lousy job of it! Also, why were you immune to the programming? Are you special?

Seems like, if there is evidence for God, Science would be totally blind to it, by design.
Only if God is not affecting physical things in the natural world, which pretty much rules out the sort of Gods people tend to worship. For instance, if God answers prayers by making physical changes in the world, then science will be able to detect those changes, and they will thus be proxy evidence for God's existence. But you know what? Studies of the efficacy of prayer have been carried out by scientists, and the results have been no better than placebo. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist, of course. It just means that he doesn't seem to be answering prayers - at least not in any way that skews the usual statistics of, for example, recovery from fatal illnesses, as far as we can tell.

What strikes me as strange is that this All Powerful God of yours is so keen to hide himself away from his Creation. Surely, if he was so keen for us all to Believe in Him, he could come right out and convince us fairly easily that he is real. Why doesn't he do that, do you think? Why does he rely on us drawing dubious inferences from the existence of split rocks in Arabia, instead?

So basically, if I know of a real mountain that exists on the Earth right now that anyone can go to and see and study for themselves, and that scientists can study and critique in any way they wish to, which is apparently directly tied to events described in the Bible, where God appeared to mankind and left evidence on the ground from His presence, is that a possible source of evidence for God or is something about that not scientific evidence?
And there's scholarly consensus that this real mountain is undoubtedly the location of the acts of the Abrahamic God that you speak of, is there? Why haven't we seen headline news proclaiming that Proof of God has been found at last? Why haven't all the Buddhists converted to Judaism in the face of this marvellous convincing evidence?

There are at least three different locations, I know of, where the presence of God may have directly altered the physical surface of the Earth in the vicinity of the mountain.
That makes three different locations where the presence of God may not have done anything, I'd say.

One in particular, the Split Rock, has a chance to either blow people’s minds apart, or just be classified as a natural phenomenon, depending on how the analysis scientifically plays out.
You know, I've seen lots of split rocks in my time. It has occurred to me that - just maybe - rocks can be split by natural processes. But no, that can't be right. Only God could split a rock!
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Look at these:



Do you think maybe Moses led the Israelites to the UK, and New Zealand and Australia as well as Saudi Arabia?