Desperate denial of General Relativity by The God
- Thread starter The God
- Start date
the god said:
Lets transport a big Cube (with sharp straight edges) on the surface of the Neutron Star, assuming that Neutron Star has extreme Gravity and appreciable curvature is present, now can you please analyse how an observer will see the cube from a distance?
Professor Eric V. Linder said:
Hi Tashja,
The key to thinking about gravitational lensing is the lensing part. The effects really are not that different from looking through normal lenses. You can find many example of videos comparing gravitational lensing images to those seen through lenses like the base of a wine glass on the web. Also see a video glossary by one of my colleagues, Reiko Nakajima, at http://videoglossary.lbl.gov/#n36
Gravity bends light just like a lens does. Why? Because (in almost all situations) gravity acts like an index of refraction. When you look at a fish at the bottom of a pond, you do not see it at its true position because water bends light - it has an index of refraction of 1.33. A straight stick extending from the air into the water will appear bent. The index of refraction of gravity is given by 1+Phi, where Phi is the gravitational potential GM/(r c^2), where M is the mass of a gravitational mass and r is the distance from it. Near the surface of the Sun, the strength of Phi is 0.000001 (10^{-6}), so the index of refraction is quite small and one needs precise experiments to measure the bending of light (i.e. gravitational lensing). For a neutron star, r is much smaller than the Sun, although the mass M is about the same: Phi is about 0.1. So a cube sitting on a neutron star would appear about the same as a cube sitting at the bottom of a pool, with regard to lensing effects!
Only when you get to black holes, where Phi is near 1, do new aspects of gravitational lensing enter. This is because interpreting gravity as an index of refraction is only good when Phi is much less than 1, what is called the linear gravitation theory.
Thanks for your interest in gravity.
Best,
Eric
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http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s8-04/8-04.htm
http://www.eftaylor.com/download.html#general_relativity
The path of the light from the emitter to the observer, is dictated by curved spacetime or geodesics.
The eye interprets that curved geodesic path as a straight line and gives an apparent position different from the true position.
The problem you envisage is non existent.
Again the same image, which proves Newtonian Flat space....I can tell you GL as envisaged cannot happen in curved spacetime.
Tell me again.
You can tell me nothing: You are an amatuer lay person with an apparent anti cosmology streak and threads shifted to the fringes.
You can claim your nonsense until the cows come home...It makes no difference to the reality of cosmology and the experimental and observational data and subsequent theories.
Keep trying though.
Science does not deal in proofs...
The image illustrates how and why gravitational lensing occurs...nothing more, nothing less.
[1]Light follows geodesics in curved spacetime.
[2]Spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve.
John Wheeler:
]3]Curved spacetime is an effect that has been validated and a requirement of GR.
[4]
The path of the light from the emitter to the observer, is dictated by curved spacetime or geodesics.
The eye interprets that curved geodesic path as a straight line and gives an apparent position different from the true position.
[2]Spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve.
John Wheeler:
]3]Curved spacetime is an effect that has been validated and a requirement of GR.
[4]
The path of the light from the emitter to the observer, is dictated by curved spacetime or geodesics.
The eye interprets that curved geodesic path as a straight line and gives an apparent position different from the true position.
Right, very true, it proves how gravitational lensing occurs..
But, look at the image again..
It proves how lensing takes place in Newtonian Flat space...
GL proves flat space not curved space !!
parrotized stuff devoid of any argument !!
Parrotized but correct.
Parrotized but correct.
Your eyes cannot interpret anything, you are always in 'wink' mode !!
Wow!!! I mean are you really fair dinkum?
Gravitational lensing is observed because of curved spacetime, and you are still infatuated with "prove and proof" the way of most of our god botherers.
ps: You do now appear to be reaching desperate stages...Perhaps take a step back and see the error of your nonsensical posts and your methodology?
Wow!!! I mean are you really fair dinkum?
Gravitational lensing is observed because of curved spacetime, and you are still infatuated with "prove and proof" the way of most of our god botherers.
ps: You do now appear to be reaching desperate stages...Perhaps take a step back and see the error of your nonsensical posts and your methodology?
I feel pity on you, Paddoboy.
You posted an image which shows Newtonian Implications, now you are dancing around saying that it proves curved spacetime. Have some shame, argue like a man, not like some street urchin !!
That's OK, desperation tactics is to reverse what actually applies to yourself and as this forum recognises.
The image supports and illustrates gravitational lensing as generally accepted by mainstream experts, and totally rebuffs your nonsensical claims otherwise, particularly your fabricated optics argument which was demolished in the other thread.
You can also feel free to think what you like, it makes no difference in the scheme of things or academia.
You are able to realize that surely?
Agreed !
But it shows Newtonian Flat space, not curved spacetime of GR !! Have you still not noticed it ?
It's a 2 D illustration! Have you still not noticed it?
but here's some more.....
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/exotic/gravitational_lens/
Only an utter fool would really deny the multitude of images that have been posted, imaging actual gravitational lensing, spacetime curvature and GR confirmation, both here and elsewhere when you have chosen to conduct your evengelisitc like mission against mainstream cosmology.
As was mentioned earlier on in this post before your desperation episodes,
Obviously!
Another great example of gravitational lensing, curved spacetime and further confirmation of GR:
https://astronomynow.com/2015/03/05/distant-supernova-split-four-ways-by-gravitational-lens/
In this Hubble Space Telescope image, the many red galaxies are members of the massive MACS J1149.6+2223 cluster, which creates distorted and highly magnified images of the galaxies behind it. A large cluster galaxy (center of the box) has split the light from an exploding supernova in a magnified background galaxy into four yellow images (arrows) to form an Einstein Cross. Image credit: NASA, ESA, and S. Rodney (JHU) and the FrontierSN team; T. Treu (UCLA), P. Kelly (UC Berkeley) and the GLASS team; J. Lotz (STScI) and the Frontier Fields Team; M. Postman (STScI) and the CLASH team; and Z. Levay (STScI)
Distant supernova split four ways by gravitational lens
Over the past several decades, astronomers have come to realise that the sky is filled with magnifying glasses that allow the study of very distant and faint objects barely visible with even the largest telescopes.
A University of California, Berkeley, astronomer has now found that one of these lenses — a massive galaxy within a cluster of galaxies that are gravitationally bending and magnifying light — has created four separate images of a distant supernova.
The so-called “Einstein cross” will allow a unique study of a distant supernova and the distribution of dark matter in the lensing galaxy and cluster.
“Basically, we get to see the supernova four times and measure the time delays between its arrival in the different images, hopefully learning something about the supernova and the kind of star it exploded from, as well as about the gravitational lenses,” said UC Berkeley postdoctoral scholar Patrick Kelly, who discovered the supernova while looking through infrared images taken November 10th, 2014, by the Hubble Space Telescope (HST). “That will be neat.”
Kelly is a member of the Grism Lens-Amplified Survey from Space (GLASS) team led by Tommaso Treu at UCLA, which has worked in collaboration with the FrontierSN team organised by Steve Rodney at Johns Hopkins University to search for distant supernovae.
“It’s a wonderful discovery,” said Alex Filippenko, a UC Berkeley professor of astronomy and a member of Kelly’s team. “We’ve been searching for a strongly lensed supernova for 50 years, and now we’ve found one. Besides being really cool, it should provide a lot of astrophysically important information.”
One bonus is that, given the peculiar nature of gravitational lensing, astronomers can tune in for a supernova replay within the next five years. This is because light can take various paths around and through a gravitational lens, arriving at Earth at different times. Computer modelling of this lensing cluster shows that the researchers missed opportunities to see the exploding star 50 years ago and again 10 years ago, but images of the explosion will likely repeat again in a few years.
“The longer the path length, or the stronger the gravitational field through which the light moves, the greater the time delay,” noted Filippenko.
Kelly is first author of a paper reporting the supernova appearing this week in a special March 6th issue of Science magazine to mark the centenary of Albert Einstein’s general theory of relativity.
Kelly, Filippenko and their collaborators have dubbed the distant supernova SN Refsdal in honour of Sjur Refsdal, the late Norwegian astrophysicist and pioneer of gravitational lensing studies. It is located about 9.3 billion light-years away (redshift = 1.5), near the edge of the observable universe, while the lensing galaxy is about 5 billion light-years (redshift = 0.5) from Earth.
Einstein Cross
Einstein’s general theory of relativity predicts that dense concentrations of mass in the universe will bend light like a lens, magnifying objects behind the mass when seen from Earth. The first gravitational lens was discovered in 1979. Today, lensing provides a new window into the extremely faint universe shortly after its birth 13.8 billion years ago.
“These gravitational lenses are like a natural magnifying glass. It’s like having a much bigger telescope,” Kelly said. “We can get magnifications of up to 100 times by looking through these galaxy clusters.”
Illustration showing how the powerful gravity of a massive galaxy cluster bends and focuses the light from a supernova behind it – gravitational lensing – resulting in multiple images of the exploding star, an Einstein Cross. Image credit: NASA, ESA and A. Feild/STScI
When light from a background object passes by a mass, such as an individual galaxy or a cluster of galaxies, the light is bent. When the path of the light is far from the mass, or if the mass is not especially large, “weak lensing” will occur, barely distorting the background object. When the background object is almost exactly behind the mass, however, “strong lensing” can smear extended objects (like galaxies) into an “Einstein ring” surrounding the lensing galaxy or cluster of galaxies. Strong lensing of small, point-like objects, on the other hand, often produces multiple images — an Einstein cross — arrayed around the lens.
“We have seen many distant quasars appear as Einstein crosses, but this is the first time a supernova has been observed in this way,” Filippenko said. “This short-lived object was discovered only because Pat Kelly very carefully examined the HST data and noticed a peculiar pattern. Luck comes to those who are prepared to receive it.”
The galaxy that is splitting the light from the supernova into an Einstein cross is part of a large cluster, called MACS J1149.6+2223, that has been known for more than 10 years.
In 2009, astronomers reported that the cluster created the largest known image of a spiral galaxy ever seen through a gravitational lens. The new supernova is located in one of that galaxy’s spiral arms, which also appears in multiple images around the foreground lensing cluster. The supernova, however, is split into four images by a red elliptical galaxy within the cluster.
“We get strong lensing by a red galaxy, but that galaxy is part of a cluster of galaxies, which is magnifying it more. So we have a double lensing system,” Kelly said.
Looking for Transients
After Kelly discovered the lensed supernova November 10th while looking for interesting and very distant supernova explosions, he and the team examined earlier HST images and saw it as early as November 3rd, though it was very faint. So far, the HST has taken several dozen images of it using the Wide Field Camera 3 Infrared camera as part of the Grism survey. Astronomers using the HST plan to get even more images and spectra as the telescope focuses for the next six months on that area of sky.
“By luck, we have been able to follow it very closely in all four images, getting data every two to three days,” he said.
Kelly hopes that measuring the time delays between the phases of the supernova in the four images will enable constraints on the foreground mass distribution and on the expansion and geometry of the universe. If the spectrum identifies it as a Type Ia supernova, which is known to have a relatively standard brightness, it may be possible to put even stronger limits on both the matter distribution and cosmological parameters.
https://astronomynow.com/2015/03/05/distant-supernova-split-four-ways-by-gravitational-lens/
In this Hubble Space Telescope image, the many red galaxies are members of the massive MACS J1149.6+2223 cluster, which creates distorted and highly magnified images of the galaxies behind it. A large cluster galaxy (center of the box) has split the light from an exploding supernova in a magnified background galaxy into four yellow images (arrows) to form an Einstein Cross. Image credit: NASA, ESA, and S. Rodney (JHU) and the FrontierSN team; T. Treu (UCLA), P. Kelly (UC Berkeley) and the GLASS team; J. Lotz (STScI) and the Frontier Fields Team; M. Postman (STScI) and the CLASH team; and Z. Levay (STScI)
Distant supernova split four ways by gravitational lens
Over the past several decades, astronomers have come to realise that the sky is filled with magnifying glasses that allow the study of very distant and faint objects barely visible with even the largest telescopes.
A University of California, Berkeley, astronomer has now found that one of these lenses — a massive galaxy within a cluster of galaxies that are gravitationally bending and magnifying light — has created four separate images of a distant supernova.
The so-called “Einstein cross” will allow a unique study of a distant supernova and the distribution of dark matter in the lensing galaxy and cluster.
“Basically, we get to see the supernova four times and measure the time delays between its arrival in the different images, hopefully learning something about the supernova and the kind of star it exploded from, as well as about the gravitational lenses,” said UC Berkeley postdoctoral scholar Patrick Kelly, who discovered the supernova while looking through infrared images taken November 10th, 2014, by the Hubble Space Telescope (HST). “That will be neat.”
Kelly is a member of the Grism Lens-Amplified Survey from Space (GLASS) team led by Tommaso Treu at UCLA, which has worked in collaboration with the FrontierSN team organised by Steve Rodney at Johns Hopkins University to search for distant supernovae.
“It’s a wonderful discovery,” said Alex Filippenko, a UC Berkeley professor of astronomy and a member of Kelly’s team. “We’ve been searching for a strongly lensed supernova for 50 years, and now we’ve found one. Besides being really cool, it should provide a lot of astrophysically important information.”
One bonus is that, given the peculiar nature of gravitational lensing, astronomers can tune in for a supernova replay within the next five years. This is because light can take various paths around and through a gravitational lens, arriving at Earth at different times. Computer modelling of this lensing cluster shows that the researchers missed opportunities to see the exploding star 50 years ago and again 10 years ago, but images of the explosion will likely repeat again in a few years.
“The longer the path length, or the stronger the gravitational field through which the light moves, the greater the time delay,” noted Filippenko.
Kelly is first author of a paper reporting the supernova appearing this week in a special March 6th issue of Science magazine to mark the centenary of Albert Einstein’s general theory of relativity.
Kelly, Filippenko and their collaborators have dubbed the distant supernova SN Refsdal in honour of Sjur Refsdal, the late Norwegian astrophysicist and pioneer of gravitational lensing studies. It is located about 9.3 billion light-years away (redshift = 1.5), near the edge of the observable universe, while the lensing galaxy is about 5 billion light-years (redshift = 0.5) from Earth.
Einstein Cross
Einstein’s general theory of relativity predicts that dense concentrations of mass in the universe will bend light like a lens, magnifying objects behind the mass when seen from Earth. The first gravitational lens was discovered in 1979. Today, lensing provides a new window into the extremely faint universe shortly after its birth 13.8 billion years ago.
“These gravitational lenses are like a natural magnifying glass. It’s like having a much bigger telescope,” Kelly said. “We can get magnifications of up to 100 times by looking through these galaxy clusters.”
Illustration showing how the powerful gravity of a massive galaxy cluster bends and focuses the light from a supernova behind it – gravitational lensing – resulting in multiple images of the exploding star, an Einstein Cross. Image credit: NASA, ESA and A. Feild/STScI
When light from a background object passes by a mass, such as an individual galaxy or a cluster of galaxies, the light is bent. When the path of the light is far from the mass, or if the mass is not especially large, “weak lensing” will occur, barely distorting the background object. When the background object is almost exactly behind the mass, however, “strong lensing” can smear extended objects (like galaxies) into an “Einstein ring” surrounding the lensing galaxy or cluster of galaxies. Strong lensing of small, point-like objects, on the other hand, often produces multiple images — an Einstein cross — arrayed around the lens.
“We have seen many distant quasars appear as Einstein crosses, but this is the first time a supernova has been observed in this way,” Filippenko said. “This short-lived object was discovered only because Pat Kelly very carefully examined the HST data and noticed a peculiar pattern. Luck comes to those who are prepared to receive it.”
The galaxy that is splitting the light from the supernova into an Einstein cross is part of a large cluster, called MACS J1149.6+2223, that has been known for more than 10 years.
In 2009, astronomers reported that the cluster created the largest known image of a spiral galaxy ever seen through a gravitational lens. The new supernova is located in one of that galaxy’s spiral arms, which also appears in multiple images around the foreground lensing cluster. The supernova, however, is split into four images by a red elliptical galaxy within the cluster.
“We get strong lensing by a red galaxy, but that galaxy is part of a cluster of galaxies, which is magnifying it more. So we have a double lensing system,” Kelly said.
Looking for Transients
After Kelly discovered the lensed supernova November 10th while looking for interesting and very distant supernova explosions, he and the team examined earlier HST images and saw it as early as November 3rd, though it was very faint. So far, the HST has taken several dozen images of it using the Wide Field Camera 3 Infrared camera as part of the Grism survey. Astronomers using the HST plan to get even more images and spectra as the telescope focuses for the next six months on that area of sky.
“By luck, we have been able to follow it very closely in all four images, getting data every two to three days,” he said.
Kelly hopes that measuring the time delays between the phases of the supernova in the four images will enable constraints on the foreground mass distribution and on the expansion and geometry of the universe. If the spectrum identifies it as a Type Ia supernova, which is known to have a relatively standard brightness, it may be possible to put even stronger limits on both the matter distribution and cosmological parameters.
It's a 2 D illustration! Have you still not noticed it?
but here's some more.....
View attachment 1104
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/exotic/gravitational_lens/
Only an utter fool would really deny the multitude of images that have been posted, imaging actual gravitational lensing, spacetime curvature and GR confirmation, both here and elsewhere when you have chosen to conduct your evengelisitc like mission against mainstream cosmology.
As was mentioned earlier on in this post before your desperation episodes,
Obviously!
You dont know what you are defending !
GL is a well observed phenomenon. No dispute
But it does not establish curved spacetime...thats the point..your first so called 2D pic, indicates Newtonian flat space, your second just shows GL.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
TG, it is apparent that you've got an idea that you like but can't defend. You're not satisified with the explanations of GR that you're encountered here and elsewhere, and as as a result, you've (inexplicably) decided they're false. Your argument 'it doesn't show curved space' seems about as far as you've gotten, and you want others to show you a solution you can analyze. It's great that you've got this idea, and you've done your best to present it, but ideas are not enough.