Denial of evolution IV

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Hercules Rockefeller, Oct 27, 2009.

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  1. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Thank you, when you said 5 MYA, I couldn't remember how long it took the wall to break. Your link sent me to the Zanclean flood, which was still over 5 MYA. So there's no question that the flood event is far too ancient to have any bearing on the Flood Myth.

    Again science prevails over myth.
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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I don't dispute that it is very probable that the Med went dry and refilled long ago (million or more years ago). I even said that in my post 719:

    "... very solid evidence supports, the Mediterranean basin was dry a very long time ago and obviously not connected to the Atlantic Ocean. ..."

    This is not a one time event. It probably happens as every major ice age ends as water returns to raise the ocean levels and will happen again, in a short geological time scale, as your link above even states:

    "... If the Strait of Gibraltar closes again, which is likely to happen in the near geological future (though extremely distantly on a human time scale), the Mediterranean would mostly evaporate in about a thousand years. ..."

    The memory of a great flood and sudden flooding I spoke of is of the most recent re-flooding of the Med Basin.* - That was less than 40,000 years ago. See the note below graph of continental shelf. I.e. less than 50,000 years ago the out of Africa people started their WALK to Australia as the oceans were so low. During the last ice age with with much lower Atlantic there was no connection between the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Lake (or the "bone dry" Med basin, where people lived and collected that most valuable of items - salt).

    Yet there is such a connection now. ERGO sometime less than 40,000 years ago the Atlantic Ocean did AGAIN rush in and caused a great flood, as I suggested. That is the one that bible calls the "Noah Flood" and other cultures in the Mid East and near the Mediterranean also describe in their myths.

    * I not speaking of the re-flooding that took place 5 million or so years ago. Or any of the others - only the most recent re-flooding less than 40,000 years ago. Early ones I agree are too far back in the past to have even a myth remaining in human minds.
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  5. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    See my earlier remarks, with the map of Nineveh. Has it affected your point of view on this?

    EDIT: Looking again at what you are saying, I'm wondering if this relates to an event coupling the Mediterranen and the Black Sea before 5000 BC which would ostensibly be in reach of early myth builders.

    But note, the commentary from National Geographic News, something more of an authority than your cite:

    Nail in Noah's-Flood Coffin?

    Giosan's analysis points to a reconnection that was "quite mild," said Mark Siddall, an oceanographer at the University of Bristol in the U.K. who was not involved with the study.

    "It looks like the connection may have involved an overspill from the Sea of Marmara of just a few meters," Siddall added.

    Tony Brown, a paleo-environmentalist at the University of Southampton in the U.K., said he fully supports Giosan and colleagues' new findings.​
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  7. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Didn't claim it was, and if you look at the link I provided, you'd see that the Messinian salinity crises was the culmination of a series of events that included a cyclic component.

    There is no evidence to support this hypothesis.

    Nothing to do with ice ages, everything to do with plate tectonics.

    The most recent re-flooding of the med was the zanclean flood that ended the messinian salinity crisis. The Med has been 'wet' ever since then.

    There is no evidence to support the reflooding of the med in the last 40k years. The only oceans that have reflooded in the time frame that humans have been on the planet are the likes of the dead sea, the caspian sea, and the black sea.

    The Straits of Gilbratra are between 300m and 900m deep (the Zanclean flood left gouges 250m deep).
    20KYA the sea level was 120m lower than it is today.
    Mallorca speleotherms tell us that the caves there has been water there during the entire period (there is some controversy wrt these findings as it suggests that the MI5 high stand was as much as 1m higher than previously thought, results that appear to be supported by results from the grand caymans).

    Meanwhile, if you look at reconrstuctions from the last glacial maximum eg:

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    You'll note that the Med is shown as open.

    If I am being completely honest, the only people I have seen suggest that the Med was closed during the LGM are H. G. Wells, and A. C. Clarke. Wells, I believe proposed it as a hypothesis, and Clarke included a reference to it in an early draft of 2001: A Space Odyssey. I have yet to see anything to convince me that the Med dried up during this period, and a number of lines of evidence that suggest the contrary.
  8. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Black Sea Deulge Theory on Wiki
  9. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Yes, thanks again, that leads also to the link from this scientist who published the findings I mentioned, that the event was smaller than once claimed.


    I suppose it's rather moot as to which event led to a flood myth, since they occur all over the world, from China to Meso America, and undoubtedly include myths from Pacific Rim cultures under assault by rare tsunamis.

    The more important aspect of this discussion is the myth-busting one, since we are confronted by denialism in the form of claims that rely exclusively on one myth or another to attempt to refute the best evidence of science.

    For any person who continues to believe that a man named Noah was the only man who ever rode out a catastrophic flood, they are in denial about the realities of geology, hydrology, the Holocene record (showing no mass extinctions) and of course the history accumulated from the cultural artifacts, most notably the Epic of Gilgamesh, which contains other parallels to the Noah myth than just the flood itself.

    From this we note that denialism has a very broad reach, to encompass virtually any field, even those outside the huge scope of science.

    Considering the insidious effect of almost losing touch with reality, I continue to be amazed by the appearance of apologists who pretend to be "fringe" but are really in denial of one element or another of the larger congregation of denialists. More amazing is that they sometimes have a science training, that for some reason they abandon in pursuits of the fringe brand of denialism.

    It's a cultural phenomenon of our present era that folks will scoff about in the future, wondering why there was a pervasive resistance to evidence.
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Not if that is the map in post 723.

    From your National Geographic link: "...As a result, there may have been much less water cascading through the Bosporus and onto the exposed continental shelf surrounding the Black Sea. ...'''

    I have not considered these minor floodings as adequate basis for Noah like myths in many Mid East cultures claiming the entire world was submerged. Also if they occur more than once in 100 or so years, then they would never be described as a unique global flooding. Young people would have first person accounts of the last time from their grandparents. Only less frequently than once every 20,000 years or so of a dumping of Atlantic (not via the Bosporus) into a much lower (at least 100 meters) Mediterranean basin would kill in sufficient numbers (those trapped on now submerged islands in the Mediterranean) to make these "global flooding myths." Don't misunderstand - I am not suggesting an event every 20,000 years or so.

    What I am noting is that about 40,000 years ago early humans arrived in Australia by WALKING. Their descents are the Bushmen living in Australia today. Ergo, the sea level was much lower than it currently is - The Ocean was NOT on top for the continental shelf but contained by its edges. Ergo, there was no connection between the Mediterranean basin or sea. (I don't have much idea as to the depth of the Mediterranean water if it was not a dry basin - only that is was much lower than today's approximately same as ocean level.

    My ideas are based mainly on these three points:

    (1) Back when humans could walk to Australia (or across a land link from NE Asia to Alaska) the closest Atlantic Ocean water to the Straits of Gibraltar location was more than 10 miles away.

    (2) Now the Atlantic Ocean water continuously flows thru the Straits of Gibraltar on the bottom, in nearly same volume that Mediterranean Sea water is continuously flowing out into the Atlantic Ocean and making the descending Taylor instability "salt rich finger columns" that make sonar nearly useless where they are falling into the less salty and colder Atlantic Ocean water.

    (3) The transition, between earlier condition (1) to current condition (2) was relatively rapid on a human time scale as self accelerating via erosion, with peak flow into the Mediterranean basin greater than the Niagara River going over the falls. I am too lazy to find /compute this changing flow volume and the changing surface area of the Mediterranean Sea or guess its initial depth below the Atlantic Ocean. I think (guess) the Mediterranean basin flooding event took at least a year, perhaps even nearly a decade if it was initially "bone dry."

    Which of these three do you think is fundamentally wrong?

    I will also note, as I suggest that some such event has happened several times in the last few million years, that the erosion cut is steadily being raised by the northward motion of the African tectonic plate (same as the Alps are still growing) and that with something like at least 100,000 years between these events ordinary erosion fills in the prior events erosion channel, so the Atlantic Ocean must cut it again in each event. I.e. what starts as a small intermittent inflow during storms, grows into a Niagara River like flow at its peak. Perhaps a hundred years lapse from first storm wash over to same water levels with the balance net zero flow of today.

    PS I am working my way forward from your posts - perhaps posts I have yet to read will change my POV or have been answered in this post.
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  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I think it likely there has always been a "wet Med" but that it has been much lower and smaller when not connected to the Atlantic Ocean - the river inflow is relatively small compared to the evaporation loss rate if it were as large as it is today.
    I don't agree. Here is part of why:


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    The associated text (of the source) is below

    (1)”When fleets of ships carrying warriors from all over Greece set off to do battle with the great fortress city of Troy, perhaps some of them sailed from Pavlopetri, the oldest known submerged town.”

    (2) “One kilometre out in the Mediterranean Sea, near Haifa, Israel, a village lies hidden beneath the waves. It has been so well preserved that weevils sit in the grain stores, human skeletons lie undisturbed in their graves, and a mysterious stone circle still stands as it was first erected.

    (3) “On Egypt's northern coast, where the Nile delta meets the sea, there once stood two cities of such wealth and grandeur that they were famous throughout the ancient world. Today, their remains lie buried beneath a shallow bay.”

    Quote and photos (limited by Sciforums computer to only three) from:

    The New Scientist is not some rag publication. If you want that, see: an article with title:
    “Over 200 sunken cities found in the Mediterranean”

    Harder to refute is the public presentation reported (with photos of artifacts) here: Here is part of the text found there:

    “On Saturday, Egyptian and foreign dignitaries, a large press and media contingent, archaeologists from around the world and geologists converged on Abu Qir where the results of the survey were disclosed at a grand event. A rapt audience was able to admire objects raised from the seabed, including a magnificent black granite torso of the goddess Isis wearing diaphanous dress fastened with the so-called "Isis knot" below her breast.

    Meanwhile, underwater television footage revealed the cities of Canopus, Menouthis and Herakleion in all their detail. Well-preserved houses, temples, walls, a harbour and colossal statues reflected the wealth and luxury of the communities that once inhabited the area.

    "The significance of the discovery of these major sites cannot be overestimated," said Franck Goddio, president of the European Institute of Marine Archaeology. "

    This is from page 26 of a massive book (note the “26” in the link) which appears to be a collection of many different discoveries. Quite a few are off the coast of Cuba supporting the idea, very clearly shown in the continental shelf map of post 721, that there was a wide band of dry land between Cuba and Florida (wider than Florida is now). I.e. that the ocean levels were very much lower with no possible connection to the Mediterranean Lake (or a dry Mediterranean basin?).

    On page 28 you can read:
    “…Aside from the sonar signals that were used for this discovery a camcorder was also sent down to the archaeological deposit. Thanks to these images they have been able to find out enough anomalous data to stimulate interest in the discovery. Most of these blocks, that are at a depth of 600 meters, have gigantic dimensions, reaching to five meters of height (16.5 feet)and several tons of weight.

    It has been confirmed that the stones were cut, carved and polished to make fit them with others and thus to form greater structures. Concerning the strange inscriptions, which are similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics, very little is known except that they are very abundant and that they are in almost all the parts of the deposit. There have appeared as well, symbols and drawings whose meaning is not known. …”

    I don’t have time (or inclination) to look at more than these three pages. Many different views are presented. Some submerged cities that are near coast lines are quite likely due to earthquakes but surely not those more than 600 meters below current sea levels.

    SUMMARY: To again state the obvious: When ruins of cities exist more than 600 meters below current ocean levels, the Atlantic ocean was too low to be connected to the then smaller Mediterranean Sea (Surface evaporation balancing river inflow much like the Dead Sea does).
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  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    My thrust was connect your views on sea level changes to the locale around Nineveh, just south of the foothills into the mountains of Turkey. I was singling out the Epic of Gilgamesh since it has direct implications on the Noah story, and since the late-era tablets were found there, in Library of Ashurbanipal.

    It is hard for me to understand how the people of the upper Tigris would have any sense of an ancient sea level change, particularly while they were living on the banks of river that was notorious for overflowing (although apparently south of them, in the arable floodplain).

    Yes, and the earlier event, much earlier, when the continent became isolated, gave rise to a high diversity in marsupials (also attesting to evolution which is the subject of this thread) and many exotic variations that would seem almost extraterrestrial to us if we suddenly encountered them today.

    So when the land bridge permitted human entry into that region, they were cohabiting with some of the last of those ancient species.

    Just noting this, I realize it's not your point.

    I don't think they are fundamentally wrong for addressing sea level changes that affected paleolithic people. I was merely driving at the central flood myth of the western European legacy that supports the denial of evolution. Best evidence is that the recorded story began in Sumeria and persisted for perhaps as long as all the dynasties of ancient Egypt. That particular story is situated in flood plains of Mesopotamia, strictly river flooding. The control group, if you will, is Egypt, with its gentle and beneficial rise and fall of the Nile. And in its mythology, as far as I can tell, there is no comparable flood story, and, more remarkably, they lack the prototypical angry gods that are seen in Mesopotamia, and the insinuation of human guilt as the cause of flooding.

    (By the way we still have religious leaders blaming modern cataclysms on human guilt - Haiti and New Orleans are examples of locales they claim were selected by the angry God to prosecute the wicked.)

    Given all of this, I was simply concluding that the particular flood myth (loading up the animals, etc.) appears to point only to the Tigris-Euphrates basin and its tendency toward seasonal inundation. Since this is one of the foundations by which westerners deny evolution, I am merely extricating this, as a cause of denialism, from your overall schema.

    Yes I engaged a few folks when the traffic was relatively light, then it picked up so a lot has been said in even just the past few days.

    So you see my thrust was in a slightly different direction, attempting to illustrate that the causes for denialism are not supportable, having derived from myths that are irrelevant to the realities of nature.
  13. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

    It might be related to local tectonic plate movement s rather than sea level changes.
    It does seem a lot of water to hump onto land. Can you find a reference that refers to this widespread low sea level occurring.
    For I have heard it is a bit of a mystery how man got to Australia 50,000 years ago. Maybe they made rafts. and successfully made the crossing. They would have seen smoke coming from the South at times so surmised there was land beyond the horizon.
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I strongly agree with your main point: Beliefs based on Biblical myths (or other religious dogma) can not be held by anyone intelligent in opposition to scientifically established facts. Amazingly some even believe that the sun stood still in the sky for Josha (I think) to have more hours for some battle.*

    I was aware that cultures all over the globe do have in their collective memories a myth of a great flood. Some are no doubt due to earth quake generated large tsunamis, but I am of the opinion that some are due to large bodies of water relatively suddenly establishing a path to large lower regions. This would naturally occur all over the world as the ocean levels rise with most of an ice age's ice melting, but not at the same time. I.e. when below sea level inland regions flood would depend upon the height of the coastal barrier mountain chain's low points.

    A great amount of water can be stored on land when the ice age is long. Even today there are spots in Greenland's valleys that the ice is a mile thick. It was more than that over most of Scandinavia and norther Russia. As I mentioned before, the the steep walled fiords of Norway are not yet eroded into more gentile slopes as they are still rising from the sea since miles of thick ice burden have now been removed from them.

    I forget how much the ocean level would rise (more than 100 meters, I think) if just the ice of Antarctica were to melt. In the worst ice ages, perhaps 1/6 of the Earth had ice cover with average depth of a mile. That would drop the ocean level by more than 1000 feet as its surface grows smaller as the level drops. I don't want to get into arguments, about the exact number - I am just trying to make the point that ice ages do cause large changes in ocean levels. If some one want to research to find more accurately than my estimations how much the ocean level changes - please do and post. I an too lazy to do that.

    I have a vague recollection of reading that this happened in the upper US mid west. Several States were suddenly flooded, as I recall. If true, there were no doubt, now lost Indian myths that grew up too.

    *Faith based ignorance can be very strong. When I was young, living in West Virginia, there was a public meeting to see if there was support for teaching French in the high school. One old man stood up, waving his bible, and said: "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, that's all our kids need."
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  15. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

    There can't have been a land bridge as the the migrants would have brought other domestic animals with them and just the other wild animal would have used the same bridge also. There are dingos there which are dogs and these seem to be "evolutionary later" compared to the ancient type of animals on the Australian continent.
    Did these dogs come with the first migrants or later.

    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  16. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    First off, let me remind you of what I said earlier:
    The salient point being that parts of the straits of Gilbratra are 900m deep, so even if the med were 600m lower than it is now, it would still be connected to the Atlantic ocean.
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Pavlopetri is submerged under 4-6m of water, and is believed to have been submerged around 1000BC. This is probably related to tectonic activity.

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    Pavlopetri is in the Peloponnese, which is in an extensional basin, and there are a number of thrust faults around.

    Atlit-Yam sits beneath 8-12m of water, in an area that is believed to have been submerged by the eustatic sea level rise since the last ice age. There is some evidence available that suggests that this site was abandoned suddenly, which may be associated with the flank collapse of Mount Etna c6400 BC (which is around the same time the village appears to have been abandoned).

    Herakleion is on the nile delta, and is believed to have been submerged by an earthquake in the 8 or 9th century.
    I'm not familiar with the history of Eastern Canopous, however, this article may be of some interest to you: Submergence and burial of ancient coastal sites on the subsiding Nile delta margin, Egypt

    The level of woo in that bloig prevents me from taking it seriously. I'm not sure why you're linking to it Billy?

    I don't have to refute the discoveries, Billy, It's the significance you're assigning to them, and the interpretation you're applying to them, that I believe is at fault here.

    I've dealt with Herakleion and Canopus. Menouthis is in the same area, and subject to the same subsidence as these other sites.

    Yes, it is a significant discovery, but not because of the reasons you're attributing to it. It's significant because it settlements that have been inundated by the sea present us with the potential for a wealth of information about their inhabitants. Why? Because they have been raided and pillaged over the course of 10,000 years worth of conquerors, they've been preserved, intact, since they were inundated.

    Which still doesn't support your hypothesis, because as I have already pointed out, the straits of gilbratrar are between 300m and 900m deep. So, even if the water level was 600m lower, the med would still be connected to the Atlantic. And you're still giving no consideration whatsoever to things such as the tectonic setting, and so on and so forth.
  18. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    True as far as I can tell for large parts of the St. of Gilbratra with a little search effort which turned up the following:

    " The Camarinal Sill is the sill separating the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. This threshold is the shallowest seafloor pass between the Iberian Peninsula and Africa. It is located near the Gibraltar Strait and the Espartel Sill, at 35°56′N 5°45′WCoordinates: 35°56′N 5°45′W, at an elevation of −280 m. Marine waters must climb to that depth when flowing between both ocean domains. " From:

    " The shallow Camarinal Sill of the Strait of Gibraltar, which forms the shallowest point within the strait, acts to limit mixing between the cold, less saline Atlantic water and the warm Mediterranean waters. The Camarinal Sill is located at the far western end of the strait. " From:

    OR, best of all as it has depth map below:

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    and this text:
    " The shallowest section in the Strait of Gibraltar is at the Camarinal Sill where the maxium water depth is 290 m. The interaction of the predominantly semidiurnal tidal flow with the sills inside the strait, in particular with the Camarinal Sill, gives rise to periodic deformations of the halocline in the sill regions which then give birth to internal solitary waves. The ERS SAR images have revealed that the internal solitary waves only propagate eastwards into the Mediterranean Sea and not westwards into the Atlantic. "


    Or several others but you get my point with just the first three free ones of my Google search, I'm sure.

    I.e. if the Atlantic ocean were 300 meters lower than it is, it would be separated from the Mediterranean Sea, except when wave crest in storms were about 40 feet above the average sea level. If 350m lower, not even in the worst of storms would Atlantic Water flow into the Mediterranean Sea and in about 1000 years you could walk from Italy to N. Africa and not get your feet wet.
    Except you are badly in error. Even if 99% of a bucket is solid and only 1% has a hole, it leaks. Like wise even if a dam is only 10 inches wide at the top it holds water when the top is above the water level.
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  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I will not be able to continue posting for more than a week as I will be on off shore island resort with no internet as it is more than an hour boat ride from the mainland.

    If any of the IDers have a direct line to God, tell him not to let any bad big news break for the stock market while I am out of touch.
  20. wellwisher Banned Banned

    You have to compare apples to apples. If we take a group of peacocks, selection goes to the most efficient among these critters who are poorly designed for flying. We are not comparing the eagle to the peacock or a peacock to a 757. But peacock to peacock it is about energy and entropy.

    Peacocks nest on the ground, hunt in packs of 8-10 and have these nasty spurs on their legs to fight with. They don't need to fly, but are more of a terrestrial type of bird. The peacock is efficient with what he has, with the most efficient in that group the future of the species.
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Nope. It has to do with who has the most surviving offspring. Period.

    Again, no. Evolution could randomly create a super efficient peacock that could easily fly, go faster than any other peacocks, escape predators etc. And if that means he has a tail that females don't find attractive - then those traits end with him.

    Evolution doesn't give a shit about entropy or efficiency. It cares only about having offspring that survive.
  22. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    The error is not mine, I can assure you, or are you choosing to ignore the reconstruction I posted earlier - you know, the one that shows the straight open.

    The simple fact of the matter is that you have yet to post one single iota of evidence that proves your hypothesis, and it really is that simple.

    Not only that, but you have completely ignored other arguments that I have posted.

    Incidentaly, not even your cuban story supports your hypothesis - even the researchers that discovered it posited that it related to a landbridge that subequently sunk (and I'm having increasing difficulty taking anything that site has to say seriously).
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  23. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    I wouldn't have assumed that they had pets 40-60 kYA. I don't assume there was a land bridge then either, it was the hypothesis BillyT put forward. I think the timeline is wandering all over the board, too, so that adds to the confusion. Yes, dingos would have descended from pets, no doubt, much more recently than this first incursion by neolithic humans.

    It's a good point, I'm dubious about what BillyT is advocating anyway, since events in faraway regions like Australia would be uncorrelated with events in Mesopotamia, as far as flooding is concerned.

    Actually, if we were going to be talking about Australia in terms of evolution, I would point to the sharp branching from common ancestry that produced the wildly unusual life forms there, with the preference for marsupial differentiation that the rest of the world hasn't seen. Did you happen to catch this article from National Geographic?

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