Denial of evolution III

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... What accumulated?...
Billy T replied:

Enough genetic changes to cause normal development from single cells to produce individuals of a new species.
That's variation. ...
I have no objection to your calling Darwinian evolution of a new species "variation" instead of the common name (genetic evolution) but you could have avoided a lot of posts by using the standard term and concept.

You are now admitting that evolution to new species proceeds via accumulation of small genetic variations, as was the case of the preá species evolving from the guinea pig species but you prefer to call this "variation." Yes "evolution" is a sub category of the many types of variation that exist.

If it will make you happier, I will modify my original reply to your question (What accumulates?) to be:
Enough genetic variation to cause normal development from single cells to produce individuals of a new species.

The adjective "genetic" makes it clear that the variation is not, for example, climatic mean temperature or rain fall, etc. (and certainly not the shade of blue Ford is currently using to paint cars.)
 
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Let's approach this from yet another direction: we have numerous examples of directed evolution: horses, dogs, corn, radishes, and so on. Is there any reason to think that naturalistic evolution could not proceed by systems related to those used in artificial selection? Is there any reason at all to think that descent with modification could not proceed by such systems over longer periods of time, without the reinforcement of continued, intelligently-directed pressure?

Answer: no.

You summarized on the origin of species in one paragraph. Except that Charles was more fond of pigeons.
 
I had to think about that one for a bit. Germ as in germinating sperm and ovum.
RiverWind said:
Once the mutation does make it to a subsequent offspring, then there is a chartable set of chances that it will continue on into future generations, without considering selective pressures at all; determined via the punnet square.
The question is how does that get transmitted to the sperm and Ovum before that? How does this edit occur? What are the conveyors?
Saquist,
these comments of yours reveal you have not even a basic understanding of how mutations occur and influence evolution. The mutations are in the germ cells. There is no transmission from the somatic cells. Lamark is dead. This is fundamental knowledge. It is astounding to me that you would seek to question evolution when you are so deficient in understanding this simple, yet essential aspect of evolutionary mechanism.
 
That's variation.
What's the difference between variation and evolution? Are you referring to Genetic Drift within a population vs genetic variation including new codes?

I had to think about that one for a bit. Germ as in germinating sperm and ovum.
Exactly correct.

The question is how does that get transmitted to the sperm and Ovum before that? How does this edit occur? What are the conveyors?
Mutations which occur in body cells (which generally do nothing, but in a worst case scenario result in cancer) do not transmit to germ cells. Only mutations which occur in germ cells or in the first few stages of blastula development will propagate across an entire individual's cells - as a result of all of that child's body cells being a copy of the originating zygote or blastula cells. The farther int he development process a mutation occurs, the fewer cells in the final individual will exhibit the mutation.

I don't agree because it's not simply a matter of getting passed on.
It's a matter of said gene surviving.
You stated that a faster reproductive rate, such as found in insects and smaller mammals would help a gene survive. How?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation
"Mutation can result in several different types of change in DNA sequences; these can either have no effect, alter the product of a gene, or prevent the gene from functioning properly or completely. Studies in the fly Drosophila melanogaster suggest that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, this will probably be harmful, with about 70 percent of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial.[4] Due to the damaging effects that mutations can have on genes, organisms have mechanisms such as DNA repair to remove mutations.[1]"

An important distinction: "if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene". In that case, then, yes, most are harmful. Note that it 70% are harmful as noted in that link, the remaining 30% are either neutral or positive. Those 30% are generally going to be what we are talking about in discussions of evolution; negative genetic mutations will likely not help the individual, and due to the forces you've mentioned before, will result in the earlier death or the lower productive output of the mutated individual, reducing the survival of the mutant gene in the population.

"Therefore, the optimal mutation rate for a species is a trade-off between costs of a high mutation rate, such as deleterious mutations, and the metabolic costs of maintaining systems to reduce the mutation rate, such as DNA repair enzymes.[5] Viruses that use RNA as their genetic material have rapid mutation rates,[6] which can be an advantage since these viruses will evolve constantly and rapidly, and thus evade the defensive responses of e.g. the human immune system.[7]"
I agree with this completely, but I don't see how it backs your original claim. The level of DNA error checking varies between species, and sometimes a faster mutation rate is more useful than better error checking. For a layman introductions to real-world examples, check out "The Evolution of Aging"
acknowledged I think the confusion is between observed natural mutations and induced mutations.
What's the difference?

What is the template?
In order for DNA polymerase and its helper enzymes to do error checking, it has to have something to check its work against. If it creates a sequence of nucleotides randomly, how could error checking occur?

It doesn't work randomly, but instead moves along an unzipped DNA sequence, matching up the existing strand to the new strand it is creating. If it makes a mistake, it can immediately go to the original strand, the "template", to check itself. If the template has a mutation, then the new copy will reflect that error - there's no way for the copy mechanism to know that the code int he existing strand is wrong, so it treats it as correct.

You miss understand, sir.
I don't not seek accreditation. I do not desire status in your system. I never will. Your views are your own and you have them for your own reasons.
These are not my "views". This is how genes work. It is no more my view than my stating how levers work.

Those agendas are aside from my continuing search for the facts and the truth. If I were to allow my rational mind to descend to popular opinion then there is no use in having my own mind is there? I would have your mind or someone else..I'd be a copy, a clone, subjugating my intelligence by means of the blind faith of credibility. This is a fascinating discussion lets not presume your goals of being viewed favorably reflect my own.
You're effectively saying that you reject macroevolution because you refuse to learn more about how genetics works?
 
Naturally I implied something with it, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned the bare hard fact.

pigeons were the iPads of the second half of the 19th century.

Yes. They say Darwin was always on his pigeon; never left the thing alone.
 
Saquist,
these comments of yours reveal you have not even a basic understanding of how mutations occur and influence evolution. The mutations are in the germ cells. There is no transmission from the somatic cells. Lamark is dead. This is fundamental knowledge. It is astounding to me that you would seek to question evolution when you are so deficient in understanding this simple, yet essential aspect of evolutionary mechanism.

“I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know”~ Marcus Tullius Cicero

Your befuddlement does not proceed from a true understanding of what I know. It stems from an inflated sense of your own knowledge. Thus a dubiety of your own perception and willful ignorance. You have been here long enough to know and recall all the factual reasons for my doubt of evolution is not from mere incredulity. I suspect pretense. If your astonishment were genuine your explanation would have been in a layman's tongue. I'm a drafter I wouldn't expect you to know all ISO and ANSI Standards as a geologist.

So I accept your smiting...but it doesn't mean anything.

What's the difference between variation and evolution? Are you referring to Genetic Drift within a population vs genetic variation including new codes?

Variation: version: something a little different from others of the same type;
Accumulation: increase or growth by addition especially when continuous or repeated <accumulation of interest>

Mutations which occur in body cells (which generally do nothing, but in a worst case scenario result in cancer) do not transmit to germ cells. Only mutations which occur in germ cells or in the first few stages of blastula development will propagate across an entire individual's cells - as a result of all of that child's body cells being a copy of the originating zygote or blastula cells. The farther int he development process a mutation occurs, the fewer cells in the final individual will exhibit the mutation.

I'm not sure if that answers my question.


You stated that a faster reproductive rate, such as found in insects and smaller mammals would help a gene survive. How?

Number of offspring
By number of mating opportunities. Having a larger population can both hinder and assists mutation survival. More times you play the better the opportunity to win.

I agree with this completely, but I don't see how it backs your original claim.

This merely shows an understanding of mutations as a high cost in heredity.

What's the difference?
Apparently one has a less than 1% viability in mammals and plants.

These are not my "views". This is how genes work. It is no more my view than my stating how levers work.


You're effectively saying that you reject macroevolution because you refuse to learn more about how genetics works?

LOL...No, river-wind this is a post error. I added my response to Ophiolite to your response location. See edited post for clarification.
 
“I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know”~ Marcus Tullius Cicero

Your befuddlement does not proceed from a true understanding of what I know. It stems from an inflated sense of your own knowledge. Thus a dubiety of your own perception and willful ignorance. You have been here long enough to know and recall all the factual reasons for my doubt of evolution is not from mere incredulity. I suspect pretense. If your astonishment were genuine your explanation would have been in a layman's tongue. I'm a drafter I wouldn't expect you to know all ISO and ANSI Standards as a geologist.

So I accept your smiting...but it doesn't mean anything.

It has just - by my grace - acquired meaning.

Somatic cells are those that perform functions other than reproduction.

Germline cells are those that perform the function of reproduction.

Ophiolite is telling you that the mutations are in the germline cells: eggs, spermatocytes. In other words, such mutations may be transmitted to succeeding generations.

In a broader critique: if you don't know the terminology, you, yourself are putting your discussion at a disadvantage. It does not mean the smiting is meaningless, only that you cannot comprehend how hard you have been hit. I appreciate that as a drafter your field of expertise is not evolution or biology - but then perhaps you see how it would be foolish and ignorant of me to inject myself into the engineering of drafting without understanding anything of its propositions, laws and concepts?

Iceaura: I utterly apologize for my earlier comments on this issue. I was clearly incorrect in my assumptions about the debaters. My sincerest apologies.
 
Number of offspring
By number of mating opportunities. Having a larger population can both hinder and assists mutation survival. More times you play the better the opportunity to win.

But if everyone else with a wild-type breeding allele/gene is breeding at the same rate, the chance of such a new allele being permanently incorporated in the same population is still proportionately low.
 
It has just - by my grace - acquired meaning.

Somatic cells are those that perform functions other than reproduction.

Germline cells are those that perform the function of reproduction.

Ophiolite is telling you that the mutations are in the germline cells: eggs, spermatocytes. In other words, such mutations may be transmitted to succeeding generations.

YES...I know.
I looked it up as I do with everything but it is his failing that he could not properly communicate that understanding.

In a broader critique: if you don't know the terminology, you, yourself are putting your discussion at a disadvantage.

I contradict you.
I do not have an obligation to know everything as a student but to make an effort to ask and be willing to be informed. The disadvantage is inevitable and eternal.


It does not mean the smiting is meaningless, only that you cannot comprehend how hard you have been hit.

The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires.~William A. Ward

...And a teacher that swings a blow is to be assiduously avoided .

I appreciate that as a drafter your field of expertise is not evolution or biology - but then perhaps you see how it would be foolish and ignorant of me to inject myself into the engineering of drafting without understanding anything of its propositions, laws and concepts?

Far from it. It is by injecting one's-self that one displays interest to expand understanding and knowledge. It is the arrogant and emotionally disabled who are offended by a child's attempt to progress and it is a villain that strikes them down.
 
You will burn in hell for that one.

Which was scientifically proven to be near Australia by Darwin. So you will burn in Australia.

Actually there's a hell in Michigan USA as well.

hell_froze_sign.jpg
 
YES...I know.
I looked it up as I do with everything but it is his failing that he could not properly communicate that understanding.

Or, it is yours that you inject yourself into a debate unarmed. That is hardly his failing.

I contradict you.
I do not have an obligation to know everything as a student but to make an effort to ask and be willing to be informed. The disadvantage is inevitable and eternal.

I must rate your response on this point according to your actual "willing[ness] to be informed". How willing are you?

The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires.~William A. Ward

...And a teacher that swings a blow is to be assiduously avoided .

Colourful metaphor. But similarly, no man would waste time spanking a rock.

Far from it. It is by injecting one's-self that one displays interest to expand understanding and knowledge. It is the arrogant and emotionally disabled who are offended by a child's attempt to progress and it is a villain that strikes them down.

Really? A child performs progression by urinating in a protective circle? I think you mistake discussion with predestination: you already know where you want your questioning to go, whatever the route it takes.

Let's get back to the topic: you had a counter-argument related to germline mutation, I presume?
 
Or, it is yours that you inject yourself into a debate unarmed. That is hardly his failing.

I contradict you.
It is his failing that he lacks the ability or willingness to be well understood with what he knows to be a non-expert.


I must rate your response on this point according to your actual "willing[ness] to be informed". How willing are you?

Please isolate the parameters.


Colourful metaphor. But similarly, no man would waste time spanking a rock.

I would question the wisdom of disciplining an inanimate object that could not produce an error.


Really? A child performs progression by urinating in a protective circle?

Have you seen this behavior before?
I think you mistake discussion with predestination:
You are free to think what ever you wish. But it is none of my concern, sir.

you already know where you want your questioning to go, whatever the route it takes.

My questions have no particular destination. Does yours?


Let's get back to the topic: you had a counter-argument related to germline mutation, I presume?

No. Only questions.
To which no one has answered or understood despite the simplicity.
 
I contradict you.
It is his failing that he lacks the ability or willingness to be well understood with what he knows to be a non-expert.

This smug superiority of yours is completely counter-productive if your goal is indeed to learn. Wouldn't it be more useful to engage people in a manner that is conducive to them feeling motivated to ensure that your understanding improves? Right now all you're doing is inviting pointless egotistical battles that are destined to frequently veer off-topic.
 
This smug superiority of yours is completely counter-productive if your goal is indeed to learn.

I'm sorry, I have no interest in discussing inferiority complexes.
It's off topic.

Wouldn't it be more useful to engage people in a manner that is conducive to them feeling motivated to ensure that your understanding improves?

The only manner I wish to conduct is objectivity.
I dismiss all else despite the emotional repercussions.

Right now all you're doing is inviting pointless egotistical battles that are destined to frequently veer off-topic.

I have never given an invitation for these individuals to expend their egos in this discussion. This is their method of persuasion. They believe accreditation, consensus and ridicule are either effective teaching methods or proper debating strategy. I do not. What your perception labels "superior" my thinking-self defines as self control. It serves to avoid the emotional attachment to my argument and dismisses the use of emotional appeals stripping away the superfluous and irrelevant for the simple facts. And I have learned much just by dissecting their statements, verifying and cross checking wiki, library and with my personal data base of relevant data I've been collecting.

So if they are offended by my dismissing their attempts to ridicule I'm sure you can imagine I'm having a difficult time mustering sympathy for these individuals that feel the need strike out verbally. River-wind has been conducting himself most amicably ever since I have known him and I've never had to stroke his ego to get objective information. He is a model atheist and member of this forum. Thus I learn more from him and understand him better as a fellow human being. I don't have to undergo the arduous task of stripping his statements of the ad hominems, personal agendas and emotionalisms. It's just black and white and it typically has me running for sources or asking questions. (which is when we really get some where)
 
My questions have no particular destination. Does yours?

We will be frank: you are a Christian theist. Your answers will drive in the direction of that conclusion, all evidence to the contrary. Otherwise: prove me wrong.

No. Only questions.
To which no one has answered or understood despite the simplicity.

Then phrase your question to me, and I will judge its merit.
 
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