DeepSeek - OpenAI rival sending markets into turmoil

S

Sarkus

Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe
Valued Senior Member
This came somewhat out of the blue... or, more specifically, China.
Seems that a Chinese start-up (the company is a year old) has released an AI chatbot - DeepSeek - that is as good, if not better in some regards, as OpenAI's offerings, and Meta's etc. While that in and of itself is not all that noteworthy, what's getting markets in somewhat of a knot is that this new AI has only cost c.$6m to develop. And it uses far less powerful chips to do so.
OpenAI has seen its shares frop 3.5pc, wiping c.$120bn off its value, while nVidia has seen a 13pc drop, knocking a whopping $465bn off its market cap.
Overall, tech stocks are looking at having c.$1 trillion wiped off their stock market valuations, all as a result of this new Chinese AI, with Nasdaq down c.3%

It also puts one of Trump's latest announcements into some doubt - the $500bn AI investment hub he's called "Stargate".

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ai-artificial-intelligence-tech-stock-nvidia/


However, the financials aside, what this also means is that the growth of AI (as currently referred to) is not solely dependent upon improving tech. nVidia has made a fortune from improving its tech such that AI has gotten better and better, but this Chinese start-up is showing that better software/algorithms/methods can have an even greater impact.
And when the two combine...?


Anyhoo - watch this space, as this could bring about a "correction" in the markets, that has been buoyed by AI-infused tech stocks.
China, the great disruptor yet again, but this time possibly in a good way! :)
 
Sarkus said:
This came somewhat out of the blue... or, more specifically, China.
Seems that a Chinese start-up (the company is a year old) has released an AI chatbot - DeepSeek - that is as good, if not better in some regards, as OpenAI's offerings, and Meta's etc. While that in and of itself is not all that noteworthy, what's getting markets in somewhat of a knot is that this new AI has only cost c.$6m to develop. And it uses far less powerful chips to do so.
OpenAI has seen its shares frop 3.5pc, wiping c.$120bn off its value, while nVidia has seen a 13pc drop, knocking a whopping $465bn off its market cap.
Overall, tech stocks are looking at having c.$1 trillion wiped off their stock market valuations, all as a result of this new Chinese AI, with Nasdaq down c.3%

It also puts one of Trump's latest announcements into some doubt - the $500bn AI investment hub he's called "Stargate".

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ai-artificial-intelligence-tech-stock-nvidia/


However, the financials aside, what this also means is that the growth of AI (as currently referred to) is not solely dependent upon improving tech. nVidia has made a fortune from improving its tech such that AI has gotten better and better, but this Chinese start-up is showing that better software/algorithms/methods can have an even greater impact.
And when the two combine...?


Anyhoo - watch this space, as this could bring about a "correction" in the markets, that has been buoyed by AI-infused tech stocks.
China, the great disruptor yet again, but this time possibly in a good way! :)
Click to expand...
Yes, as something of a sceptic where all the AI hype is concerned, I chuckled to read about this. An overdue market correction - and great to break the US monopoly on AI, if this thing is any good, which it may prove not to be, of course.

I think we are now in a world in which anything that reduces US power and influence, now that it is turning its back on liberal democracy, must be seen as positive, in principle.
 
exchemist said:
Yes, as something of a sceptic where all the AI hype is concerned, I chuckled to read about this. An overdue market correction - and great to break the US monopoly on AI, if this thing is any good, which it may prove not to be, of course.

I think we are now in a world in which anything that reduces US power and influence, now that it is turning its back on liberal democracy, must be seen as positive, in principle.
Click to expand...
Well, apparently there are some "tests" that can be done, and it exceeded OpenAI's offering in one of the Maths tests, and was similar in all the others. For example, not all LLM can cope with even relatively easy maths questions, especially where counting is required. For example, I've just asked ChatGPT.com a simple question, and this is its result: The word "strawberry" contains two "R"s.
And so this one from China seems to be on a par, or slightly better in some (still relatively simple) maths stuff. (Bear in mind that the LLM doesn't have a calculator embedded to work out sums)

It may be that the start-up in China have focussed solely on one tiny aspect of LLMs such that they are currently able to "fool" others into thinking it is better than it is, and that the well-known AI models are far more "general", if that's the right term, but, yeah, as a wake-up call it's good news, and should only spur further advances all-round.
 
Wow... nVidia stock currently down 16%, and Nasdaq down 3%. NVidia still worth almost $3 trillion, off the back of its AI chips. Maybe it can recoup some of that by ripping off the gaming industry even more than it already has done! ;)

UK markets fared okay today, though, thanks to our wonderful idea of not having any significant tech companies to speak of! ;)
 
Just went to the DeepSeek site and found this banner at the top of the page...

Due to large-scale malicious attacks on DeepSeek's services, registration may be busy. Please wait and try again
 
Sarkus said:
This came somewhat out of the blue... or, more specifically, China.
Click to expand...

So, yeah, I mean ...

google-20250126-deepseek-longtermism-detail-bw-hl.png

... this part just feels weird.

(See also: Parmalee, #3745047↗, "longtermism, a rather extreme sort of consequentialist ethics and philosophy which is entirely dependent upon it's adherents having a whole lotta blind spots.")
 
Last edited:
(Q) said:
Just went to the DeepSeek site and found this banner at the top of the page...

Due to large-scale malicious attacks on DeepSeek's services, registration may be busy. Please wait and try again
Click to expand...
I wonder if Trump is into state-sponsored cyber-warfare of this ilk? "Crush the Chinese upstart! How dare they be better than the US! Apply sanctions! Tariffs!!"
 
Sarkus said:
I wonder if Trump is into state-sponsored cyber-warfare of this ilk? "Crush the Chinese upstart! How dare they be better than the US! Apply sanctions! Tariffs!!"
Click to expand...
Yes I wondered about that. Perhaps using the Israelis as deniable proxies: they have form on this stuff.
 
I tried DeepSeek today and simply asked, How does gravity work? The response...

Gravity is a fundamental force of nature that causes objects with mass to attract each other. It is one of the four fundamental forces in the universe, alongside electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force. Here's a simplified explanation of how gravity works:

### 1. **Mass and Gravity**
- Every object with mass exerts a gravitational pull on every other object with mass. The greater the mass of an object, the stronger its gravitational pull.
- For example, Earth's gravity keeps us grounded and causes objects to fall toward the ground.

### 2. **Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation**
- Sir Isaac Newton described gravity mathematically in the 17th century. His law states that the gravitational force between two objects is:
\[
F = G \frac{m_1 m_2}{r^2}
\]
- \(F\) is the gravitational force between the two objects.
- \(G\) is the gravitational constant (\(6.674 \times 10^{-11} \, \text{N·m}^2/\text{kg}^2\)).
- \(m_1\) and \(m_2\) are the masses of the two objects.
- \(r\) is the distance between the centers of the two objects.
- This means gravity weakens with distance but increases with mass.

### 3. **Einstein's General Theory of Relativity**
- Albert Einstein provided a more comprehensive explanation of gravity in the early 20th century. According to his theory:
- Gravity is not just a force but a curvature of spacetime caused by mass and energy.
- Massive objects like planets and stars warp the fabric of spacetime around them. Other objects moving through this curved spacetime follow paths that appear as if they are being pulled by a force (gravity).
- For example, Earth orbits the Sun because the Sun's mass curves spacetime, and Earth moves along this curved path.

### 4. **Effects of Gravity**
- On a small scale, gravity keeps objects on Earth's surface and governs the motion of objects like projectiles.
- On a cosmic scale, gravity holds planets in orbit around stars, stars in galaxies, and galaxies in clusters.

### 5. **Gravity and Acceleration**
- Einstein's equivalence principle states that the effects of gravity are indistinguishable from acceleration. For example, if you were in a closed spaceship accelerating at 9.8 m/s², it would feel the same as standing on Earth's surface, where gravity accelerates objects at 9.8 m/s².

### 6. **Quantum Gravity**
- While Newton's and Einstein's theories explain gravity well on large scales, scientists are still working to understand how gravity works at the quantum level (e.g., in black holes or the early universe). This is an area of active research in theoretical physics.

In summary, gravity is the result of mass curving spacetime, causing objects to move toward each other. It is a fundamental force that shapes the structure and behavior of the universe.
 
Sarkus said:
Ask it how many "R"s in STRAWBERRY? ;)
ChatGPT says 2
Click to expand...
To determine how many times the letter **r** appears in the word **strawberry**, follow these steps:

1. **Write down the word and identify each letter:**

```
S T R A W B E R R Y
```

2. **Count each occurrence of the letter 'r':**

- **R** (3rd letter)
- **R** (8th letter)
- **R** (9th letter)

3. **Total number of 'r's in "strawberry":**

There are **3** instances of the letter **r**.

**Final Answer:** \boxed{3}
 
I asked it who the president of the US was, and it said Joe Biden because it's last update was Oct. 2023.
 
Sarkus said:
Ask it how many "R"s in STRAWBERRY? ;)
ChatGPT says 2.
Click to expand...
If you question it, it will say 3 but you have to pick up that it is going by pronunciation and then say, "I'm not talking about pronunciation but how many letters are actually in the word". Before that it will say 2, the first one and then the double RR:)
 
I asked DeepSeek to write a song with 3 verses, a chorus and bridge using the theme 'lost friends'...

**Verse 1**
We used to run through fields of gold,
Laughing loud, hearts brave and bold.
Now the echoes fade, the silence grows,
A shadow where your light once glowed.

**Chorus**
Where did you go, my lost friend?
Time can’t mend what it can’t defend.
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.

**Verse 2**
The years have passed like shifting sand,
I reach for you, but you’re not at hand.
Memories linger, bittersweet,
A ghost of you in every street.

**Chorus**
Where did you go, my lost friend?
Time can’t mend what it can’t defend.
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.

**Bridge**
Did the world pull us apart,
Or did we lose the map to each other’s hearts?
I’d give the sun, I’d give the moon,
To hear your voice, to find you soon.

**Verse 3**
If you’re out there, just know this song,
Is for the days when we belonged.
Though paths may split and seasons end,
You’ll always be my lost friend.

**Chorus**
Where did you go, my lost friend?
Time can’t mend what it can’t defend.
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.

**Outro**
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.
 
(Q) said:
I asked it who the president of the US was, and it said Joe Biden because it's last update was Oct. 2023.
Click to expand...
With some update limited LLM's if you get a response like that, you can say I think you are wrong but you must be date limited and it may come back with the correct answer.

Some are date limited in training but are still "live" to a limited extent but you have to push it to go beyond that training. In other cases they are strictly date limited and can do no more.
 
(Q) said:
I asked DeepSeek to write a song with 3 verses, a chorus and bridge using the theme 'lost friends'...

**Verse 1**
We used to run through fields of gold,
Laughing loud, hearts brave and bold.
Now the echoes fade, the silence grows,
A shadow where your light once glowed.

**Chorus**
Where did you go, my lost friend?
Time can’t mend what it can’t defend.
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.

**Verse 2**
The years have passed like shifting sand,
I reach for you, but you’re not at hand.
Memories linger, bittersweet,
A ghost of you in every street.

**Chorus**
Where did you go, my lost friend?
Time can’t mend what it can’t defend.
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.

**Bridge**
Did the world pull us apart,
Or did we lose the map to each other’s hearts?
I’d give the sun, I’d give the moon,
To hear your voice, to find you soon.

**Verse 3**
If you’re out there, just know this song,
Is for the days when we belonged.
Though paths may split and seasons end,
You’ll always be my lost friend.

**Chorus**
Where did you go, my lost friend?
Time can’t mend what it can’t defend.
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.

**Outro**
We were stars in the same sky,
Now I’m left here wondering why.
Click to expand...
Get it to design an album cover and add some music and release it on Apple music...
 
Seattle said:
With some update limited LLM's if you get a response like that, you can say I think you are wrong but you must be date limited and it may come back with the correct answer.

Some are date limited in training but are still "live" to a limited extent but you have to push it to go beyond that training. In other cases they are strictly date limited and can do no more.
Click to expand...
There is a Search button I pressed and then asked the question again, and it came up with the right answer.
 
(Q) said:
I asked it who the president of the US was, and it said Joe Biden because it's last update was Oct. 2023.
Click to expand...
You have to click on the "Search" button to get the most current information. Try it again and it should tell you the following:

As of January 29, 2025, the current president of the United States is Donald Trump. He was sworn in as the 47th president on January 20, 2025, marking his second non-consecutive term in office. This makes him the second president in U.S. history, after Grover Cleveland, to serve non-consecutive terms 129.
Trump won the 2024 presidential election, defeating Democratic nominee Kamala Harris, and was inaugurated in a ceremony held inside the U.S. Capitol rotunda due to freezing temperatures 24. His vice president is JD Vance, who was also sworn in on the same day 8.
Trump's presidency follows that of Joe Biden, who served as the 46th president from January 20, 2021, to January 20, 2025 911.

Nevermind you beat me to it, lol.

(Q) said:
There is a Search button I pressed and then asked the question again, and it came up with the right answer.
Click to expand...
 
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