Debt To Society

[Light]

What is it that you understand so clearly?
Baron just went on a mindless rant about how people should be allowed to kill and rob eachother.
Real genius there.

Do believe the indvidual should have any obligation to society?
Do you believe society has no obligation to the individual?
Do believe in survival of the fittest?
Do you know what incompetence is?
Do you think that a society with great abundance is not incompetent for allowing poverty to exist?
Or do they intentionally ensure that poverty exists?

I clearly understand that for a medium-to-large group of people to exist in close quarters and relative comfort and security that the infrastructures called civilization and society must exist.

All of you "do you believe" questions are simply subjective and meant to be argumentative.

No, I do NOT claim to be a genius but I do claim to have common sense and understanding. Have you ever considered developing any?

 

[Baron Max]

Looks like black people are still underprivileged in the United States, too.

Yeah, we don't give them enough handouts now ....we need to increase the government handouts and state welfare to the blacks of this nation! Pretty soon, we'll have the government handouts and state welfare to a level where blacks won't even have to work ...won't have to lift a damned finger for themselves.

But we can ignore any and all of the other "races" who are "underprivileged", because they don't complain, bitch n' moan all the time, plus, and more importantly, they don't riot and loot and burn and pillage and ..... like the blacks do all the time.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

You know, Baron, that I often get the feeling that terms like "society" and "civilization" that you, I and others understand so clearly are almost near-mysteries, or at best, poorly understood by far too many people. Especially people of the younger set.

Yep! Western cultures/civilisations/societies have carried the idea of "individualism" to unrealistic, unworkable extremes. The idea of the "rights" of the individual has gotten so far out of kilter that society has virtually lost any and all meaning. One day, if it continues, there will be no "society" because everyone will want to be an individual ....ie, NOT work for society!

And as government handouts and welfare climb, why should anyone work for a living? ...and no one considers where all that money would come from!!

Baron Max

 

[lixluke]

All of you "do you believe" questions are simply subjective and meant to be argumentative.

Wrong. Presumptuous.
I am asking your belief, and you are im[osing an intention of arguing.

 

[glaucon]

That money does NOT go to the schools, but to the state and/or the school districts (or whatever the term is where ye're from!) coffers! Thus even if the state is actually making money from those deals, the schools themselves DO NOT gain any profit for themselves. I.e., the schools are still NON-PROIT institutions.

Baron Max

You are correct. Nevertheless, it's clear that corporations have a vested interest in the day to day operations of the schools within their great reach, and the State supports this effort. This doesn't bother you?

 

[Baron Max]

You are correct. Nevertheless, it's clear that corporations have a vested interest in the day to day operations of the schools within their great reach, and the State supports this effort. This doesn't bother you?

A vested interest in the day-to-day operations??? How so? All they give a shit about is that the kids have access to their supplies of junk food and drink. Why should they care if the school teaches Zen Buddism or whatever??

We had this discussion here in Dallas a few years ago, and it came to the same thing ....nothing! The vending machines are still there, and a few radical, idealistic parents are still complaining .....mostly 'cause their own kids won't obey their instructions not to eat the damned junk food. So since the parents can't control their kids, they want the schools to control them!! But at the same time, they won't let the schools discipline their kids! Oooo-eee!?

Baron Max

 

[spuriousmonkey]

A But at the same time, they won't let the schools discipline their kids! Oooo-eee!?

Baron Max

That's not sold by major corporations is it?

 

[glaucon]

A vested interest in the day-to-day operations??? How so? All they give a shit about is that the kids have access to their supplies of junk food and drink. Why should they care if the school teaches Zen Buddism or whatever??
Baron Max

You just proved my point. The kids' access to their junk is the exact interest they have. How better to prepare future consumers?
Get 'em while they're young.

 

[Baron Max]

That's not sold by major corporations is it?

Yeah, it is! I think there are "Discipline" vending machines in the hallways and cafeteria. Kids who want to be disciplined for something they did wrong, the insert the money, select either the punishment or the dirty deed. The machine takes care of the disciplining. Pretty neat, huh?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

You just proved my point. The kids' access to their junk is the exact interest they have. How better to prepare future consumers?
Get 'em while they're young.

So what ye're saying is that kids can't think for themselves nor learn what's good for them or learn to ignore idiotic advertising??? How stupid and helpless do you think our children are these days?

Baron Max

 

[glaucon]

They are that helpless... I see it every day.
And in any case, at the very least these kids should be able to study in a neutral environment where they can learn to make educated choices.

 

[James R]

Baron:

Yeah, we don't give them enough handouts now ....we need to increase the government handouts and state welfare to the blacks of this nation! Pretty soon, we'll have the government handouts and state welfare to a level where blacks won't even have to work ...won't have to lift a damned finger for themselves.

Handouts are not the answer. What is needed is the same level of investment into predominantly black communities as there is into predominantly white communities, in terms of all the things I mentioned before (education, health, etc.)

 

[Baron Max]

Handouts are not the answer. What is needed is the same level of investment into predominantly black communities as there is into predominantly white communities, in terms of all the things I mentioned before (education, health, etc.)

Investment? What investment advisor would consider that a good investment? And remember, in the 60s and 70s, vast sums of money was "invested" in some of the black communites (read; ghettos!), and the blacks tore the damned buildings up and stole everything in them!!! And you want to "invest" more money?? Ye're very damned good at estimating the return on investments, are you??

And the other thing that bothers me about that is the fact that the "investments" of which you speak are actually nothing more than "handouts", which you've already said is NOT the answer.

Why should or would anyone invest in such a proven disasterous issue?? And how many such idiotic investors do you think there are in the world?? Two? Five?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Investment? What investment advisor would consider that a good investment?

A good investment advisor.

You complain about crime, which has huge economic effects. But at the same time you're unwilling to put a little money into education, which reduces crime.

Is it that you just can't see the connection?

And the other thing that bothers me about that is the fact that the "investments" of which you speak are actually nothing more than "handouts", which you've already said is NOT the answer.

No. A handout is where you give somebody a one-off thing which maintains that person in the same situation. An investment is where you give the person something which helps them to improve their situation.

Why should or would anyone invest in such a proven disasterous issue??

You have things beackwards. It's a disasterous issue precisely because nothing is done.

 

[Baron Max]

You complain about crime, which has huge economic effects. But at the same time you're unwilling to put a little money into education, which reduces crime.

They tried that, James, in the 70s and 80s and 90s ...it didn't work. But they're still throwing money at it today ...and it's still not working in the same fuckin' way as it didn't work before.

Is it that you just can't see the connection?

No, because too many "experts" have tried to make the connection, tried to fix the problem, but it didn't work ....over and over again! Now ye're asking me to try to see the same fuckin' connection?? No, James, I can't.

No. A handout is where you give somebody a one-off thing which maintains that person in the same situation. An investment is where you give the person something which helps them to improve their situation.

Why does someone else have to "improve" their situation? Why can't they do something for themselves for a fuckin' change? This nation has spent billions and billions over decades to try to help, and it's basically done nothing. We can't just keep throwing money at the problems ...those in the problem are going to have to do something for themselves! And I'd first suggest that they stop breeding so fuckin' rapidly, when they have no way of supporting their kids!

No society, however strong, can keep giving sustainance to those who can't or won't do anything to help themselves. We in the USA are trying it now, spending billions in give-away programs every fuckin' day ....and accomplishing virtually nothing but making those people dependent upon handouts and welfare. Compassion and "doo-gooding" has harmed them more than anything else that we've ever done!

Baron Max

 

[J.B]

You complain about crime, which has huge economic effects. But at the same time you're unwilling to put a little money into education, which reduces crime.

American schools were among the best in the world. However, vocal elements within our society demanded that the public schools take on a social engineering role as well as an educational one. Violent disruptions of American education were ordered by the Supreme Court for the purpose of breaking down racial barriers. For 30 years, American schools have diverted enormous resources into forced integration, quotas, and bussing operations. (Few people realize how expensive bussing is. Annual cost may run into tens of billions of dollars. In l990 California alone was spending $500 million per year on integration. Many school districts spend a quarter or more of their budgets on transportation. In Milwaukee alone and in a single school year, 30,000 staff hours were diverted into calculating the race of students to attend the various schools.) The results? Today's students rank at the very bottom worldwide in science and math, some 40% of American adults are functionally illiterate, and standardized test scores have declined steadily for both Whites and Blacks. Today the average White still scores 200 points higher on the combined SAT than the average Black. Americans spend more on education than any other country in the world and have the worst results. Massive White flight to escape racial zoning has reduced the tax base of every major American city. In l983, after nearly two generations of racial experimentation to promote equality, the research arm of the Dept. of Education could not produce a single study that showed Black children were learning appreciably better after desegregation.

 

[Baron Max]

Yeah, J.B., thanks! But James R. and most here seem to think that pouring more money into that vast, open, bottomless pit will help things!! ...LOL!

Some people simply refuse to face reality, they prefer to remain in their little dreamworld of peace and harmony and good-will towards all mankind! Golly, it's like a fuckin' religion with some of these people, ain't it?

Baron Max

 

[Zephyr]

Why do you think religion's been so successful? I'm not saying it necessarily helps, but it spreads...

Obviously money has to be handled properly to have an effect. I've heard of food being sent to starving African countries only to be appropriated by corrupt officials, sent back to developed countries and sold for a neat profit.

On the other hand, can you deny that aid is necessary after a tsunami or hurricane?

 

[Baron Max]

Why do you think religion's been so successful? I'm not saying it necessarily helps, but it spreads...

So ye're saying that if someone says it long enough and often enough, the people will begin to believe it? And that's what these fuckin' idealists are doing?? ...trying to say their ridiculous, unrealistic dreams so many times that we all succumb to it??

On the other hand, can you deny that aid is necessary after a tsunami or hurricane?

I wish you'd have used a different word than "necessary". But since you did, then my answer is ...NO, it was not necessary. In exactly the same way as it's obviously not "necessary" to help the people of Ethiopia and Sudan and any of a gazillion places where people are desperate, starving, diseased, homeless, murdered, raped, tortured, ...... It ain't "necessary" to help them, cause we ain't!!

Yet we helped the tsunami victims. Why? Ahh, I know the answer .......mass news media coverage and public outcry. It's the same as Hurricane Katrina ...the media covered it fully, making us all pretend to be compassionate and caring. Yet we didn't do shit for south Florida which was hit by three big hurricanes!! See? Media sensationalism is why!

There were tornados which hit in the midwest USA recently ...did you see much media about them? Was it "necessary" to help the victims who lost everything? ...everything just like the victims of Katrina in New Orleans? No, we didn't ...there was no media outcry or mass coverage to make us feel bad enough to do something. So we did nothing.

Baron Max

 

[lixluke]

The original people in America were the Indians.
White people came, and commited mass genocide.
Indians now have little reservations.
Those that were here first are the real owners of the land, and deserve to be in control of the land. The foreigners would have to be the ones in the reservations if anybody.