Darwin and the age of the Earth

[Cenderawasih]

A question for the biologists . . .

Received wisdom goes something like this:

Circa 1860 Darwin had just proposed his theory of natural selection to an unsuspecting world. But the big honchos of the day (Lord Kelvin et al) put a damper on the proceedings by insisting that the Earth is only 20 million years old or something.

Everyone shrugged and said "Darwin, you're fooked. Twenty millions years isn't nearly enough time for natural selection to produce the biological diversity we see before us. Go stand in the corner".

Then we found out the Earth was a lot older, all was well, and Darwin smiled for the first time in his life.

My question is: How exactly did they determine that twenty million years isn't enough?

A lot can happen in twenty million years.

 

[DaveC426913]

My question is: How exactly did they determine that twenty million years isn't enough?

By reading tea leaves of course.
Since they scoffed at Darwin's ideas, they sure didn't have an idea how long it would take.

 

[Cenderawasih]

Tea hee

 

[James R]

My question is: How exactly did they determine that twenty million years isn't enough?

I don't know. Who are "they"? Got any direct quotes?

It's hard to examine historical events unless you have some references to the historical record itself.

 

[Jeeves]

no

Everyone shrugged and said "Darwin, you're fooked. Twenty millions years isn't nearly enough time for natural selection to produce the biological diversity we see before us. Go stand in the corner".

No, they didn't. The age of the earth wasn't part of the controversy at all. The conflict was between --- ta-dah! --- science and religion.

 

[Jeeves]

A lot can happen in twenty million years.

Some twenty million year periods are busier than others.

 

[sculptor]

punctuated equilibrium

 

[DaveC426913]

punctuated equilibrium

Stephen Jay Gould

 

[Jeeves]

Y

punctuated equilibrium

Yeah. Think Russian history. Nothing, nothing, nothing.... Vikings! assimilation... nothing, nothing, nothing ...Christianization!.... nothing, nothing, nothing,... MONGOLS! occupation.... nothing, nothing, nothing.. IvanIII, national identity restored.... nothing, Ivan the terrible.... misery and nothing..... ROMANOVS..... progress, expansion, European influence, routine misery.... Crimean War... lots more misery, half-assed reform....BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION.....
That's how things work. Nothing much happens until something pivotal changes, and then everything happens very fast, until things settle down again.

 

[Dicart]

No, they didn't. The age of the earth wasn't part of the controversy at all. The conflict was between --- ta-dah! --- science and religion.

No, the conflict was mere socio-political.
Darwinism permit to say that the "best" are the one who rule the world.
Saying that if the "lords" are ruling over the poors, it is because they have "some merit" due to superior genetic (fitness).

Social Darwinism is a loose set of ideologies that emerged in the late 1800s in which Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection was used to justify certain political, social, or economic views. Social Darwinists believe in “survival of the fittest”—the idea that certain people become powerful in society because they are innately better. Social Darwinism has been used to justify imperialism, racism, eugenics and social inequality at various times over the past

https://www.history.com/topics/early-20th-century-us/social-darwinism

 

[Dicart]

Why Lord Kelvin failed to give the correct age of the earth :
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/kelvin-perry-and-the-age-of-the-earth

 

[sideshowbob]

Darwinism permit to say that the "best" are the one who rule the world.
Saying that if the "lords" are ruling over the poors, it is because they have "some merit" due to superior genetic (fitness).

You're misunderstanding the meaning of "fitness". It has nothing to do with "best" or "ruling". It means fit to survive.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

You're misunderstanding the meaning of "fitness". It has nothing to do with "best" or "ruling". It means fit to survive.

Yes indeed. Or, even more precisely, fit to reproduce. It's an evolutionary strategy in many organisms (plants and animals) to die after reproducing (semelparity).

 

[ThazzarBaal]

I would agree ... Fit and able are not always interchangeable terms, but able helps while fit and able fares better than just able. It's money nowadays that helps make one a more fittable fit, although the able and genetic betterment aren't always met with the money. Sometimes old money prevails with inferior genetics while the superior genetics are left in the labor pool of poverty. Crazy stuff ... Natural selection I mean.

Have a nice day.

 

[Write4U]

Crazy stuff ... Natural selection I mean.

What is often overlooked is that "natural selection" is a passive process imposed by local conditions and does not actively select for specific traits as farmers do by actively selecting breeders with specific qualities.
It is kinda like the principle contained in the term "last man standing" in context.

Literally, the phrase "last man standing" refers to the sole survivor of a battle, when everybody else has fallen. Figuratively, the phrase is commonly used to describe anything or anyone that has outlived, or outlasted other similar things.May 4, 2018

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/165449/meaning-of-the-phrase-last-man-standing-in-context#

p.s. it is important to remember that "superior traits" only applies to survival abilities, not to any particular intelligence or strength.

Example; the Silvery Salamander can never produce a male, but only clones of the moter and is eventually doomed to extinction, but survives in small numbers as a protected species.
A case of "intentional selection" of a habitable site for survival.

Silvery Salamander

In 2005, a population of Silvery Salamanders (Ambystoma platineum) was discovered on the site of Skyline High School. This rare species is unusual in that all silvery salamanders are female. The species is a hybrid of Blue-spotted and Jefferson salamanders, and egg development is stimulated by the presence of sperm from these related species, but genes from the sperm do not actually enter the egg.

University of Michigan Museum of Zoology records show only two known locations for this salamander in Michigan.

When the salamander was first discovered on the high school site, it was seized upon as a rationale for halting development; many of the people concerned with the salamander's wellbeing seemed to be people who had previously complained about the school site for other reasons. A portion of the site was set aside for the salamanders, however, and they have successfully bred twice since their discovery.

https://localwiki.org/ann-arbor/Silvery_Salamander

 

[ThazzarBaal]

What is often overlooked is that "natural selection" is a passive process imposed by local conditions and does not actively select for specific traits as farmers do by actively selecting breeders with specific qualities.
It is kinda like the principle contained in the term "last man standing" in context.
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/165449/meaning-of-the-phrase-last-man-standing-in-context#

p.s. it is important to remember that "superior traits" only applies to survival abilities, not to any particular intelligence or strength.

Example; the Silvery Salamander can never produce a male, but only clones of the moter and is eventually doomed to extinction, but survives in small numbers as a protected species.
A case of "intentional selection" of a habitable site for survival.

Silvery Salamander

https://localwiki.org/ann-arbor/Silvery_Salamander

Interesting bit of trivia. People do natural selection based on traits, but add to these ability to perform whatever desired tasks preferred by the selectors. Sometimes it goes primal, but natural selection is still involved in the choosing ... For whatever reasons.

Preferences personal to the uniqueness of various types of people coupled with need are typically the dominant determining factors ... Or so it seems.

As a wolf conducting a human behavioral study, I've noticed similarities.

 

[Write4U]

As a wolf conducting a human behavioral study, I've noticed similarities.

now that you mention wolves, there is a very interesting war veteteran restorative program that is designed to rescue and rehabilitate wildlife .
It is called "wolves and warriors" and shows a remarkable interaction between traumatized war veterans and injured or traumatized wildlife.

 

[exchemist]

Interesting bit of trivia. People do natural selection based on traits, but add to these ability to perform whatever desired tasks preferred by the selectors. Sometimes it goes primal, but natural selection is still involved in the choosing ... For whatever reasons.

Preferences personal to the uniqueness of various types of people coupled with need are typically the dominant determining factors ... Or so it seems.

As a wolf conducting a human behavioral study, I've noticed similarities.

People don't do natural selection. Nature does it. That's why it's called natural selection: selection by nature.

Are you now claiming to be a wolf - a lycanthrope?

Are you receiving psychiatric treatment?

 

[ThazzarBaal]

People don't do natural selection. Nature does it. That's why it's called natural selection: selection by nature.

Are you now claiming to be a wolf - a lycanthrope?

Are you receiving psychiatric treatment?

I always selected my mating partners. They were naturally selected for various reasons. I'm sure they selected me based on their naturally selective preferences also. I wouldn't unnaturally select a mating partner. It doesn't seem prudent. There are reasons people select who they select and this is part of the process involved In natural selection and ongoing progeny of species.

As a wolf, I've noticed similarities between humans and my kind. The behavioral study is quite revealing. They are beautiful creatures. Humans I mean. They are very attractive. I don't know why they choose the water to mate in though. Ill keep up with my research.

 

[billvon]

I always selected my mating partners. They were naturally selected for various reasons. I'm sure they selected me based on their naturally selective preferences also. I wouldn't unnaturally select a mating partner.

I have, several times. "She's cute and all but she's nuts! Best avoid."