Chemical evolution:

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by paddoboy, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    OK, a single search brought this little tid-bit.

    ROBERT M. HAZEN*1 AND DAVID S. SHOLL2 1 Carnegie Institution of Washington and NASA Astrobiology Institute,5251 Broad Branch Road NW,Washington DC 20015,USA 2 Department of Chemical Engineering,Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania 15213,USA *e-mail: r.hazen@gl.ciw.edu
    Current research on chiral inorganic crystalline surfaces progresses on two complementary fronts: nature materials | VOL 2 | JUNE 2003 | www.nature.com/naturematerials 3

    https://hazen.carnegiescience.edu/sites/hazen.gl.ciw.edu/files/213-HazenSholl2003nmat.pdf

    OK, your turn explaining the necessity of an Intelligent Designer, without whom none of this would be possible.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    We need a ID'er who can do it his way, else it would never happen

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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    In what way would that be true? I am not committed to Atheism.
    I just think belief in a supernatural being is a left-over of very primitive thinking in early hominids, which can still be observed today in the Chimpanzee behavior. And I can prove that.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It's a MIRACLE , breaking all the known laws of Nature !!!!!!!!

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  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    That's ID'er's thing

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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Science has never found a true miracle yet. Isn't that odd?
    Sometimes we see something truly mysterious, but when we examine its causes and effects, it always turns out to be a natural phenomenon, with roots firmly planted in the physics as we know and understand them to be.
     
  10. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    4,695
    All quoted passages are irrelevant. Only the link to the 2003 pdf article mattered.
    The only relevant passage I could find in that 2003 article is on p370:
    10% is hopelessly inadequate. Biologically active proteins are 100% homochiral. There is afaik no effort to explain how even hypothetically 100% preferential surface absorption could result in build up of a homochiral chain of monomer chiral molecules. By what means? And to repeat, surface preferential absorption offers no mechanism for the insertion of specified information that actual biomolecules contain and need to contain to function. So too much wishful thinking.
     
  11. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    4,695
    I hope you are just being cynical there. Or do you not realize the basic contradiction between the first and second lines!
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Therefore; ID !!!!!

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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Are you telling me that Chimpanzees do not represent early hominids?
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    So you are going to debunk Robert Hazen based on a few excerpts I provided?
    YOU ARE GOING TO DEBUNK ROBERT HAZEN ????

    Robert Miller Hazen (born November 1, 1948) is an American mineralogist and astrobiologist. He is a research scientist at the Carnegie Institution of Washington's Geophysical Laboratory and Clarence Robinson Professor of Earth Science at George Mason University, in the United States. Hazen is the Executive Director of the Deep Carbon Observatory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hazen

    https://hazen.carnegiescience.edu/sites/hazen.gl.ciw.edu/files/ChiralFaces2004.pdf

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/51...-the-curious-case-of-the-artificial-fragrance

    LEFT & RIGHT
    Geochemical origins of life's molecular handedness

    https://pswscience.org/meeting/left-right/

    Selective adsorption of l- and d-amino acids on calcite: Implications for biochemical homochirality
    https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/5487

    Chiral selection on inorganic crystalline surfaces

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nmat879

    There are another three pages of links to Hazen papers. If you like I can post all of them.
    If you now wish to debunk every paper in favor of the charlatans Tour and Behe, you are welcome to try.

    But one question that always remains unanswered: Describe Intelligent Designer

    I'll give you a head start from Wiki........

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    ;


    Intelligent Design
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

    So, who or what is an Intelligent Designer and how and where could such a being exist?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Give him time and I'm sure he'll come up with something!

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    Again, the important point to remember, when people are expressing beliefs as opposed to science, is to listen really carefully and take in their other out of this world beliefs!
    It fits q-reeus to a "T"
    Gullible:
    https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/gullible
    If you are gullible, the joke is on you because you are easily fooled.

    It is thought that gullible might be derived from the verb gull, meaning "to swallow." This would be a funny coincidence as gullible describes an overly trusting person who tends to swallow the stories he hears whole. The related word, gull, can be used as a noun "don't be such a gull!" or as a verb "you can't gull me into believing that!"
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Intelligent Design is a logically unnecessary "added value", and as such does not meet the rigor of Occam's Razor.

    There are other more compelling (known) natural self organizing principles that can easily replace the concept of Intelligent Design without affecting Universal processes one iota.

    A Mathematical Universe would be equal to an Intelligent Designer Universe in all respects, without the complication of a motivated intelligence, which, in the scope of things, is a superfluous imaginary product of human hubris.

    Humans are "special" because we are made in the image of the Intelligent Designer?

    Well isn't that "precious"......

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    But we do know that the Universe is a self-organizing system in accordance to certain universal constants. Nothing remarkable or mysterious about that.

    Can we point to an intelligent Designer behind the Universal constants?

    Can someone point to the first appearance of "irreducible complexity"?

    It seems curious that IDs are dabbling in self-organizational principles at the chemical level, then declare that the Designer by-passed all these small details and started with a fully formed irreducibly complex "flagella". If chirality is a minor detail in the formation of much more complex organizations, what's all the fuss about?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Not if you consider the implications of the third line........

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  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Intelligent design
    Moreover, there is no evidence against evolution!
     
  19. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    4,695
    None that you and like-minded brigade here are willing to accept. That being amply demonstrated here in post after post, I'm off this merry-go-round. Keep enjoying your carnival ride.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    That is because you have failed to prove anything after being afforded ample opportunity!
    And no, you don't get off that easy. You're on the merry-go-round and it's running. If you sell out now you're admitting you're wrong.

    There is no evidence against Evolution by Natural Selection. Prove me wrong!

    I bet you cannot because evolution by natural selection is a mathematical equation and holds true under all tests, including human artificial application. You got a prize Bull?

    Natural selection

    Modern biology began in the nineteenth century with Charles Darwin's work on evolution by natural selection.

    Part of a series on

    Evolutionary biology

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    Darwin's finches by John Gould

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection
     
  21. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    4,695
    I'll come back just to clarify and correct your ongoing folly. Of late evolution has come to include so-called prebiotic chemical evolution. That's what I was referring to - it's the thread topic in case you need reminding! You keep muddying the waters by chaotically switching unannounced between that and Darwinian evolution. Can't keep on topic.
    And btw despite your contempt for Behe, he has convincingly shown the macro-evolutionary claims of Darwinian evolution lead to a dead end. But you won't study his newer articles on that, instead relying on detractors claims. Bye.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    To which I responded that evolutionary processes already starts at the chemical molecular level
    As I have shown, there is fundamentally no difference in evolutionary processes, only it's application to various criteria.
    Then why do you make it so difficult for me to find the exact article you are referring to, without quote or link? I call that rude. I provide quotes and links to leave no doubt as to the intent of my post. For you to not afford me the same courtesy is not good form, IMO.

    But, thanks for the response. Of course it does not in any way negate evolution or abiogenesis.
    On the contrary, it confirms that evolutionary processes already begin at the molecular level (Hazen). Which I have already addressed many posts ago.
    but please, when you cite a scientist, provide a quote and a link. It makes for an informed exchange.

    Prebiotic Evolution and Self-Assembly of Nucleic Acids

    Abstract

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    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.8b07605#:
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
  23. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    4,695
    Disingenuous - the leads were supplied earlier this thread and I can safely assume you refused to even take a peek:
    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/chemical-evolution.163475/page-4#post-3655988
    When you expand the text immediately below vid window, an almost direct link to Amazon site is provided:
    https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=https://www.amazon.com/Mousetrap-Darwin-Michael-Answers-Critics/dp/1936599910/&redir_token=QUFFLUhqa0Mzb3NqNnZMazRqc2tkUVhrRk1qMTlwd2NDd3xBQ3Jtc0tsSDQzQjV4TE9xUXpOcGtPSFVQMUZhZXJjdS1LRDNoNTBDcFVWV3BHUHdBQ3FQSU9UUVU4UFVNVTFRcmNEdE1CV3BzTER1Y0JyOC13alZFaVNFajBYQVNfbjN4NlpROGJ3ekRwSklDMmw0WW13TEFtcw==&event=video_description&v=rBxSh0ZInng
    The non-YouTube filtered direct link:
    https://www.amazon.com/Mousetrap-Darwin-Michael-Answers-Critics/dp/1936599910/

    Behe's other important works are also cited in that vid, along with examples of outright shameless lying by his critics, but again, I can safely assume you never bothered to watch the YouTube vid. Sad.
    Why link to an article behind a paywall very few not institutionally exempt are willing to fork out for? Click bate nothing more.
     

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