Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Greatest I am, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

    I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.

    I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

    “Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

    This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

    This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

    During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

    I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
    This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

    The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

    I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

    I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

    I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

    My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

    Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

    This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

    Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

    Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?

    Regards
    DL
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. It would be like trying to talk to Michelle Bachmann rationally about Obama.
     
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  5. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    I am 38, and the suming up of what jesus is is below for me.

    What i think is that jesus was a real person, whom teachings bare little to what christianty became.

    Christmas day you celebrate the sun given energy to the world in the form of its rebirth. You are all effected by christmas whether you know it or not, energy effects us all and its why so many get lonely at christmas.

    The sun gives out spiritual energy as well as visible light, and its why humans have always worshipped the sun.

    So i think jesus existed and probably got the attention of those at that time as he probably did some weird things, humans are capable of some weird things, and most do not know. But his teachings were anti jewish religion, as the jewish religion has alot of darkness in it, but jesus taught people the road to the light.

    So you get 2 books in the bible

    Old testament - road to dark
    New testament - road to light
    I a talking about that spiritual duality we all have, we can either choose light or dark side on our lifes road.

    What ever your belief in the words associated to jesus means has little bearing on me. You have your choice and i will have mine, and others will have theres.
     
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  7. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    I take it you are a literalist then?

    Regards
    DL
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope.
     
  9. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    We have no argument. The way I like to say what you did about the bible is the it is the tree of knowledge. The O T is the evil side and the N T the good side.

    Unfortunately, the good is not that good the way, as you indicate, the church has taught it.

    What do you think of the interpretation I give to the good side of Jesus and his teachings that the churches do not teach?

    Regards
    DL
     
  10. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Not much of a communicator either.

    Regards
    DL
     
  11. IfIonlyhadabrain Registered Member

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    84
    Sure.

    To be fair, I don't hate you. Christ teaches that we are to love our enemies, and in truth, you are not my enemy. You are my brother, though we don't believe the same. So, if I am to love my enemy, how much more should I be expected to love my brother? To clarify, I am Catholic. I reject gnosticism because, as I understand, it puts forth the idea that the body is a prison that we need to free ourselves from. On this basis alone, I reject it. There is an order in nature, and the spirit certainly has primacy over the flesh, but also a union, which is a good as it is our created form.

    The tradition of scapegoating was symbolic in nature. The high priest in Jewish tradition would "receive" the sins of the people and place them on a lamb to be sacrificed. The history is old, beginning first with Abel, whose worship offering of a lamb was found acceptable to God. The meaning behind this sacrifice was that Abel returned to God what God gave to us. Cain's sacrifice was rejected because it was an offering of the fruit of his own work.

    This scene follows immediately after the "fall" scene wherein Adam and Eve sinned and turned from God, and were cursed with death and suffering. These offerings represented the human attempt to return to favour with God, to return to purity and holiness. Abel's offering was the return of God's gift to us in the form of a lamb, while Cain's offering was the produce of his own work. This image is upheld by Cain's actions following his murder of Abel, and that was to leave the face of God and build a city. That is, to turn from the gift of life and security given by God, and to create his own.

    Abel's offering grew into a custom of placing the sins of a village, or community onto a goat, then leading it into the desert, tethering it and leaving it to die. This tradition was bolstered and made new during the passover, where the Hebrews were saved from the angel of death by the blood of a lamb on their doorposts. It was through the blood of the lamb that they found their freedom from the oppression of the Egyptians. Thus, the sin offering became not merely a means of forgiveness, but also of freedom from oppression.

    The motif was taken up within the priestly traditions that developed later. The high priest became the mediator between God and man, and thus the executor of the sin-offering ritual played out every year at Passover. This motif was carried through in the life of Jesus.

    But it wasn't a forced offering, as was the case in the historical past. Jesus' sin offering was of Himself, as High Priest, taking the sins of the whole world. It is offered to us, rather than us forcing it on Him.

    However, in Catholic theology, as separate from Protestant theology, it is our duty not simply to accept this offering, but to unite ourselves to it. This is derived from Paul's teaching that he fills up what is lacking in Christ's sacrifice, and that is our own self-offering. That is to say, He cannot be a singular scapegoat for all of humanity without our consent, and without our participation. In the Jewish tradition, the High Priest didn't simply offer a lamb, and that was that. Rather, the "people" had to participate by offering themselves, their sins, and uniting these to the pascal sacrifice. Otherwise, there was nothing for to be offered along with the lamb's life.

    So, we participate in this sacrifice by offering ourselves along with it. We offer our sufferings. We offer our sins, with a deliberate declaration to improve ourselves morally. Thus, I appreciate when you say:

    My approach has always been to find the middle ground, the temperate vision, the balance. As you say, the usual Christian (though I would say the usual Protestant and uncatechized Catholic) think about Jesus as their hero and savior (which I agree with, but I think the sense you were going for here is that it was all Him, and we don't have to do anything). But you also seem to put forward the idea that it's "all" on you. I would say it's both. That salvation comes in cooperation with Christ, just as union with the Father comes through cooperation with His will. Christ does His part, the part that we could never accomplish (which is perfect obedience to the will of the Father), and we need to do our part (which is doing as Christ commanded us: Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect; If you love me, you will keep my commandments; Love God with [your whole self]; Love your neighbor as yourself; Pick up your cross and follow me). We cannot be inactive participants. That will not save us. We must be active participants.

    While I disagree with the basic principle of a cosmic consciousness, though I understand its appeal, the second statement you make about God's not interfering with us I would generally agree with. Generally speaking, I don't think miracles are really God's style. The way I see it, God created the universe with laws to operate in particular ways. I don't see reason for Him to break such laws, except in cases of necessity (such as the Divine taking on human nature in order to achieve the measures of justice necessary for the redemption of mankind). I would assert that the vast majority of miracles are little more than the natural outcomes of deep communion, or interaction with the Divine nature. That is, such things have always been within the scope of natural law, through interaction with the supernatural. And I know of certain, major Catholic philosophers/theologians who agree with this view.

    With respect, the search for God is never ending when you are of the Catholic persuasion also.

    This is correct Catholic theology as well.

    I disagree here. God is the supreme being, and we are to become like Him, through Him, but that due to the simple fact that He is infinite and we are finite, we can never reach His kind of supreme-ness. We are, however, to endlessly grow to be more like Him. Thus, eternal growth toward infinite perfection.

    Well, as I said earlier, I hold merit to both positions. I consider both extremes to err in their extremities, but I hold commonality with both. And as I said earlier, this is the Catholic Church's approach too. And to be clear, by "Catholic Church" I mean the teaching body, the Magisterium. Not individual lay persons. Not individual priests or bishops. The teaching body, out of which comes Catholic doctrine, the true authority of Catholic belief.

    Regards,
    IfIonlyhadabrain
     
  12. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Whose praise?
     
  13. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Ifionlyhadabrain

    “it puts forth the idea that the body is a prison that we need to free ourselves from.”.

    Goodness no. We believe in a God within or access to God from within. We follow Jesus who says that our bodies are the temples of God. Christians seem to think the fall cursed everything but Gnostic Christians do not.

    ------------------------------------

    “Cain's sacrifice was rejected because it was an offering of the fruit of his own work.”

    Both Cain and Abel had offerings of their own work. Be it seeds in the ground or seeds within an animal, both men nurtured the crop. Try again.

    ---------------------------

    “Adam and Eve sinned and turned from God”.

    They have become as Gods.

    That is hardly turning from God is it?

    Scriptures say, be yee as perfect as God and A %& E had to gain the moral sense that the tree gave to follow that wise scripture. Read the Jewish ideas of Eden as our elevation and not our fall if you want to understand Eden properly.

    http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php

    You will note that they intelligently and morally do not have an original sin concept. That immoral tenet is Christian.

    --------------------------------

    “We offer our sins, with a deliberate declaration to improve ourselves morally.”.

    One does not improve himself morally by embracing immoral ways and actions like human sacrifice and the profiting of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

    I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and here you are preaching for Satan. Shame on you.

    In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning.

    He would know that barbaric human sacrifice is immoral.

    You do too. Right?

    Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove its benevolence.

    When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

    When you say yes, you become his.

    ---------------------------------------

    “the second statement you make about God's not interfering with us I would generally agree with. Generally speaking, I don't think miracles are really God's style.”

    You say this while refuting it with what followed because it serves your pathetic view that God would condemn you just to have to turn around and die for you. Grow up.

    ------------------------------------

    “With respect, the search for God is never ending when you are of the Catholic persuasion also.”

    Pure B S.

    They, like you, idol worship your Godinabook.

    You say so right here.

    “think about Jesus as their hero and savior (which I agree with,”.

    ---------------------------------


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs.

    Your reply

    “This is correct Catholic theology as well.”

    Yours is an outright lie. Read the first commandments.

    ---------------------------------

    “God is the supreme being,”.

    Prove your statement.

    God cannot be seen doing anything except in your imagination.

    Regards
    DL
     
  14. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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  15. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Personally, I don't think MOST of what is in the bible is to be taken 100% literally... I mean, if it were... well, can someone tell me the proper way to offer my co-workers as a sacrifice for working on the Sabbath?
     
  16. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    [video=youtube;N-2_LqOS3uo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-2_LqOS3uo[/video]

    Regards
    DL
     
  17. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Mr. Greatest I Am, still fighting fiction with fiction - meh!
     
  18. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    I fight fiction with whatever comes to hand.

    Should I stop?


    It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

    They also do much harm to their own.

    African witches and Jesus
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

    Jesus Camp 1of 9
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493

    Death to Gays.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

    For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
    Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

    Regards
    DL
     
  19. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    So...ignore reality and spend your life fighting imaginary foes...that is what you honestly see as your duty!

    And in what way does your floundering, wasted, lifelong losing imaginary battle provide any benefit to mankind?
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Didn't watch the video yet, so not sure your stance GIA - but my point was, it's an OLD book written a LONG time ago during a VASTLY different period of human thought, activity, and life. I'm not saying the core values are bad... but things have changed. hell, even the POPE is finally making changes in the catholic church (pushing to accept homosexuals into the church, pushing to stop insulting other religions, openly praying with and doing "laying of the hands" of those with imperfections/diseases... it's amazing what this man is doing! I hope it works out well!)
     
  21. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Time will tell but at the same time he has re-introduced indulgences that are basically his lying about God and his standards and indicates that God's justice can be bribed. That same hypocrisy split the church back when.

    Regards
    DL
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    If posting your religious beliefs on the Net, and trying to convert people to your version of belief, brings you happiness - then go for it. Just don't be too sad when no one listens.
     
  23. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I dunno... I mean, one big thing to remember - for the longest time, the church was/were the only ones who were able to read and write... it made it very easy (not to mention convenient) to control what the "word of God" was in order to help control the masses... I find it hard to believe that the "bible" as we know it is the original and unadulterated word of God... if only because it is the word of God passed down through HUMAN hands and ears...
     

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