Can you spot great art?

[Lori_7]

i recently commissioned a portrait of my dog poohbear. i'm very pleased with it...

the artist is a long time friend of the family, and i saw his work and asked him if he would paint her. he said he could really feel her spirit coming through as he did it, and i think he captured it quite well. he has a website with a lot of other work on it, check it out. he's done a lot of portraits, but also some darker, more abstract stuff.

http://www.rickechlerart.com/

 

[Stoniphi]

Very Van Goghesque, nicely done.

...Art, to me, must stand on its own without someone having to explain the concept...

Now, that ^ is the crux of the issue in a nutshell - "great" art, like "good" art is a matter of opinion, and that is subject to change.

Any artist that can make a living at it is a "professional" and what they produce is "professional grade" art. That should enter into consideration when evaluating an individual piece of "art".

If the work of "art" must be explained, then it has failed as a work of "art". There is no written explanation to go along with the Mona Lisa or the Sphinx, but they are both widely considered to be "great" works of "art".

(apologies for my sporadic participation here at the moment, a death in the family and accompanying rituals are interfering with my fun )

 

[iceaura]

Art, to me, must stand on its own without someone having to explain the concept. If the piece automatically provokes the concept then it can at least be deemed successful, if not necessarily good.
”
I don't think anyone worth paying attention to would argue against that statement. The whole point of non-verbal artforms is... to communicate non-verbally!

Non-verbal artforms may not be as culturally limited as verbal ones, but they are not universal.

You have to be at least a bit acculturated to hear piebrochaid, or bebop, or sygyt and khoomei and related animistic base "singing". American "Primitive" guitar music hardly speaks at all to rural Greeks, and vice versa. Picasso became famous for challenging European audiences with the comprehension difficulties of African based visual art. And an alert Westerner looking in complete ignorance at a Chinese medieval jade sculpture or a Japanese rock garden eventually realizes they are missing quite a bit of what's going on.

It's not all that easy to see things, or hear them, without some prior acquaintanceship with the concepts behind their creation.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I have a great eye for Art, the greatest art of them all are the multitude of creations in existence.

A nebula in space
The Milky way
A rainbow sitting aloft a valley of lush green hills during spring
A sunset on a clear horizon
An open glade in the middle of a pine forest with a hidden lake in summer
Flowers and grass in the morning dew
The Sun Rising behind mount Sinai.


Who can match the art of the Most high? greatest of all artists, king of kings, Sustainer of all life.

 

[S.A.M.]

Non-verbal artforms may not be as culturally limited as verbal ones, but they are not universal.

You have to be at least a bit acculturated to hear piebrochaid, or bebop, or sygyt and khoomei and related animistic base "singing". American "Primitive" guitar music hardly speaks at all to rural Greeks, and vice versa. Picasso became famous for challenging European audiences with the comprehension difficulties of African based visual art. And an alert Westerner looking in complete ignorance at a Chinese medieval jade sculpture or a Japanese rock garden eventually realizes they are missing quite a bit of what's going on.

It's not all that easy to see things, or hear them, without some prior acquaintanceship with the concepts behind their creation.

I agree. I love going for book readings by the author, for art exhibitions which also show the paintings that inspired the painter, for poetry readings and book clubs where the author motivations and meanings are suggested. Art improves with the knowledge to appreciate it.

[Quote from deleted post removed by the Moderator]

Its foolish to read only part of a poem and make assumptions about what it means:

As Khayyam says:

Some in deep thought spirit seek
Some lost in awe, of doubt reek
I fear the voice, hidden but not weak
Cry out "awake! Both ways are oblique."

or

Like God, if this world I could control
Eliminating the world would be my role
I would create the world anew, whole
Such that the free soul would attain desired goal.

or

This cup was made by the Wise Lord
With love & care to the heights soared
The potter who shaped with such accord
To make and break the same clay, can also afford.

and finally:

"Enjoy wine and women and don't be afraid, God has compassion"


The essence of Sufi Islam.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Any artist that can make a living at it is a "professional" and what they produce is "professional grade" art. That should enter into consideration when evaluating an individual piece of "art".

This is the primary dictionary definition of "professional." It works well in crafts like plumbing, auto repair and website design. The quality of the work is tested by use and must conform to certain practical standards. Anyone whose work does not conform to those standards will become known and will no longer be able to make a living at it. (Unless he works for the government of course.)

But in the fine arts there is no practical standard of quality. Aesthetic standards vary from community to community and from era to era, and outright iconoclasm comes into vogue at odd intervals.

This is why, in the arts, we usually reserve judgment until a work's appeal has outlasted its own era and begins to satisfy a more universal set of standards, before we start tossing around the word "great." This is also why the term "popular" has come into use, especially concerning music but also applying to literature and theater (live and recorded) and even the visual arts. We recognize that a work of contemporary art may have a legitimate appeal to us or even to a subset of us (angry young punks, the colorblind, or people who wish they were born in the very early Paleolithic Era when singing hadn't been invented and the only musical instruments were hollow logs), but may not be appreciated by those who follow us.

In other words, someone who is able to make a living painting perfect circles of solid color on a canvas using a draftsman's tools may be a "professional," but that doesn't make his art "great."

My personal favorite was a lady back in the 1960s who would simply pour paint right out of the can onto a canvas and then agitate it to form random shapes. She made a living doing that for short time.

I suppose competitors peeked through her window to see how she did it, ripped off her "technique," and sold "knockoffs" for half the price.

 

[Stoniphi]

...The quality of the work is tested by use and must conform to certain practical standards...

Yes, this is how I was taught. There are also professional standards for the materials and techniques involved.

On a practical level - if the materials and applications are not correct the 'art work' will destroy itself before your very eyes with the passage of the years. A 'great' work of art should NOT self destruct IMHO, as Da Vinci's Last Supper has. (wrong paint, bad surface, moisture penetration from the rear, experimental piece )

Yes, I do appreciate that there are many now who do not feel that 'art' should be held to any standards and that anyone who feel the urge can simply declare themselves to be an 'artist', sans degree, education, experience or market. En abstract I agree, in practical reality I do not. You say that you are a plumber? Then show me your Journeyman's certification and tell me how you would solder a watertight join in 3/4 inch copper. You say that you are a doctor? Then show me your medical degree and tell me how you are going to examine my colon without killing me. You say that you are an artist? Then show me your degree and tell me what you do to buy your food like the plumber and the doctor do.

The proof is in the pudding, across the board, fair and equal.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Yes, this is how I was taught. There are also professional standards for the materials and techniques involved. On a practical level - if the materials and applications are not correct the 'art work' will destroy itself before your very eyes with the passage of the years. A 'great' work of art should NOT self destruct IMHO, as Da Vinci's Last Supper has. (wrong paint, bad surface, moisture penetration from the rear, experimental piece.

Yes, but quality of tools and materials and expertise in their application comprise a substantial part of a tradesman's work and have a major effect on its quality. Not so the painter. These days it's not at all difficult to get really good guidance on choosing materials and tools, and a couple of art classes at a community college will tell you how to use them properly.

The difference is that unlike plumbing and car engines, paintings have very little practical purpose and instead are judged primarily by the feelings and ideas they inspire in us. A painter can make a more-or-less legitimate living by providing people with pieces that will hang on the walls of their homes to impress their visitors, or on the walls of the waiting rooms outside their offices to distract their customers or patients. That qualifies him as a "professional." But his art will not be qualified as "great" until either A) it's timeless enough that another generation of people will still appreciate it or B) scholars and critics whom we believe know much more about art than we do tell us that it's great.

Yes, I do appreciate that there are many now who do not feel that 'art' should be held to any standards and that anyone who feel the urge can simply declare themselves to be an 'artist', sans degree, education, experience or market. En abstract I agree, in practical reality I do not. You say that you are a plumber? Then show me your Journeyman's certification and tell me how you would solder a watertight join in 3/4 inch copper. You say that you are a doctor? Then show me your medical degree and tell me how you are going to examine my colon without killing me. You say that you are an artist? Then show me your degree and tell me what you do to buy your food like the plumber and the doctor do.

There are plenty of perfectly good painters and other visual artists who do not have university educations, at least not majoring in art. Good grief, why should they be any different from musicians, photographers, or novelists??? Not that outstanding art teachers and classes are not available and well-attended, but they are hardly a prerequisite for creating great art.

That's just between you and your muse.

 

[GeoffP]

I may not know art...but I know what Fraggle likes.

 

[Stoniphi]

...quality of tools and materials and expertise in their application comprise a substantial part of a tradesman's work and have a major effect on its quality. Not so the painter....

Uh...not so much, Frag, sorry. Allow me to elaborate a little on this.

To make a painting you first need a piece of canvas stretched over a canvas stretcher, sized and primed. The canvas stretcher must be made of good solid wood, each piece straight and free of major flaws that may take up or lose volatiles as time goes on and make the stretcher frame warp. The stretcher frame must be assembled solidly and braced so as to resist the pull of the canvas when it is stretched.

The canvas itself should either be linen or cotton canvas that has been treated with something along the lines of formaldehyde to prevent the cotton from rotting. (MOMA had a painting that they paid a huge chunk of change for some years ago that was done on raw cotton canvas. It literally dry rotted off the wall of the museum and was a total loss because the 'artist' had failed to properly prepare and prime it.)

Whether you choose to use linen or formaldehyde treated cotton canvas, the fabric must be sized and clean. One side of the canvas is tacked down securely to a side of the stretcher. The canvas is then stretched from the opposite side of the stretcher with a pair of "canvas stretching pliers" and tacked down. A remaining side is then lightly hand stretched and tacked down. The last side is then stretched with the canvas stretching pliers until the canvas just begins to tear. You do this in a quiet room and pay close attention as you pull the fabric to know exactly when to tack that last side down.

The stretched canvas is then primed. These days we use a water based acrylic gesso rather than applying a white lead paste with a palette knife. It is at this point that the need for a proper stretch becomes obvious to the initiate. The pores of the fabric must be open enough for the primer paint to penetrate such that it beads up on the back side of the canvas resulting in a batch of little round primer paint beads that can easily be felt if one runs their hand across the back of the canvas.

This forms a physical bond between the primer paint and the canvas fabric in addition to the chemical glue bond that the rabbit skin glue or acrylic polymer adhesive makes with the fabric.

Why is this important? Because canvas picks up water from the air very rapidly and contracts as it does so, making the canvas a little bit tighter than it was. As the canvas then loses the water back into the air it relaxes and loosens. We refer to this as the canvas 'breathing". As the years go by, this breathing loosens the glue bond between the primer and the fabric. If the primer has not bled through the canvas and formed the beads on the canvas back the primer paint then begins to let go of the fabric and pieces of the painting begin to fall off. That mechanical bond is of critical importance to the longevity of the painting. At this point there is no way to stop the chipping and flaking other than to maintain the painting in an absolutely stable thermal and hydrologic environment, like in a hermetically sealed showcase or to remount the canvas on a rigid surface like masonite.

A professional artistic painter should know and employ this technique (though many do not), a hobbyist or naive (uneducated) painter will not. If one is looking for a work of art as an investment as well as a thing of beauty than it behooves one to use a professional and to examine not just his/her work but the professional credentials as well, just like with any other profession or skilled trade.

I appreciate that anyone can buy a pre-stretched canvas from the art supply store and just paint on that. That canvas was primed loose on an assembly line and then stapled on the stretcher. It was not ever "stretched" so the primer will eventually fail. That is OK for students and hobbyists, but NOT for professional grade art.

It is the difference between an "artist" and an "artiste" as well. As you may well guess, I would be absolutely thrilled to go on about this in greater detail.

 

[Stoniphi]

...Good grief, why should they be any different from musicians, photographers, or novelists???

Or electricians, plumbers, engineers or rocket scientists? I met an 'engineer' who had 'declared' herself 'graduated' and got a job by falsely claiming that she had a diploma from the university I was paying to attend. I understand that it is the vogue these days to just declare yourself to be something and then to expect to get paid for that without investing in an education or garnering any experience in the field. I don't agree with that though, having paid my dues.

Do you want your wiring to be repaired by a self declared but non professional electrician? Operated on by a self declared surgeon? Why then should the creative professions be any different?

Maybe it is the difference between "creative" thinking and "disjunctive" thinking?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Uh...not so much, Frag, sorry. Allow me to elaborate a little on this. To make a painting you first need a piece of canvas stretched over a canvas stretcher, sized and primed. . . . .

I have known dozens of artists without formal education in the field who know all of these things and produce art that is structurally sound. There's a bit of the old guild-craft sense of community among artists. Enough of the elders take the responsiblity to shepherd the acolytes that anyone who takes his art seriously can be assured of finding out how to avoid having it deteriorate after purchase.

You seem to think that the technology behind painting is as complex as the technology behind plumbing or carpentry, so that a person has to serve a five-year apprenticeship washing a master's brushes and setting up the tables in his shows before the world can be certain that his canvas won't wrinkle, his bronze won't tarnish, his yarn won't unravel, or his glaze won't craze. Your descriptions of the processes of stretching and priming canvas are interesting but not convincing.

Or electricians, plumbers, engineers or rocket scientists? I met an 'engineer' who had 'declared' herself 'graduated' and got a job by falsely claiming that she had a diploma from the university I was paying to attend. I understand that it is the vogue these days to just declare yourself to be something and then to expect to get paid for that without investing in an education or garnering any experience in the field. I don't agree with that though, having paid my dues. Do you want your wiring to be repaired by a self declared but non professional electrician? Operated on by a self declared surgeon? Why then should the creative professions be any different?

When I buy a painting I don't care whether the artist follows the rules and conventions that are taught in universities. All that matters is whether I like it, and I can make that determination by simply looking at it. As for the integrity of his infrastructure, if I see him at a show that's in its fifteenth year of being run by people with a good reputation, and I see him talking shop with other artists whom I know and whose works I have purchased, I have no fear that somewhere along the way he hasn't learned how to prepare his canvas and buy top-quality paint.

As a musician I personally resent your insistence that one cannot produce "great art" without a university degree. I have been performing as a soloist or a member of a band or choir for more than fifty years, and I have had no formal musical education since high school--in fact the most valuable class I ever had was in the fourth grade. Yet people are delighted to hear me or my group, and my sense of harmony and my compositional skill have been praised. The lead guitarist in my last band begged me to compose all of his solos. The leader of my current band calls me the best bass guitarist he's ever worked with--the first one who walked into an audition and, without even a consutlation, crafted bass lines to his songs that make them sound the way he has always wanted them to sound.

 

[Enmos]

My scores:

42%
83%
100%

I don't like abstract art much. The ape paintings were easily distinguished from the ones made by humans.

 

[Stoniphi]

...You seem to think that the technology behind painting is as complex as the technology behind plumbing or carpentry...

and you obviously do not. That is likely from that lack of higher education you mention farther down.

I tried to keep my example simple and concise so as to accommodate the less well educated amongst us. I see that I failed in that effort, sorry.

I am glad that you believe that you have mastered playing the bass guitar, that you can get paid for doing that and that this has made you popular with some folks I do not know. That does not mean that you are capable of writing the score for Beethoven's 9th though, does it? That does not mean that you know jack about painting either, does it?

...As a musician I personally resent your insistence that one cannot produce "great art" without a university degree...

Hey - thanks for putting words in my mouth, Frag, I really depreciate that!

It is OK if you think that anyone can be anything that they want to be merely by stating it as fact. That does not mean that they are though, just that they can say it. Your blatant disrespect for a university education is slightly incongruent in this context though, isn't it? :shrug:

"I don't know art, but I know what I like." Now there's a tired old saw if ever I saw one! You are not alone in that opinion though, and somebody (with scorch marks in their pockets from the spontaneous combustion of large quantities of cash) has to buy that 'art fair' art from the 'art fair' artistes. You can even consider it to be "great" if you wish, but that don't make it so.

Yes, there are viable alternatives to a university education, though very few who pursue that path do as well as if they really got an education. (Now you are going to tell me that "the exception proves the rule!" - right?) Michelangelo studied under Da Vinci instead of going to university and he did well enough....'course he never learned to bathe himself very well either. Gauguin was a 'Sunday Painter' and he did well enough too, though he made better money as a lawyer and could support the family that he left behind when he worked at law. He has his place in history, despite dying of syphilis and mercury poisoning, miserable and alone in a paradise.

Silly me though, I went and wasted all of those years at university learning things that I could have just declared myself expert and professional at instead. That is how I can easily perceive your lack of education in this subject, though I appreciate the emotion behind your statements.

 

[Stoniphi]

...There's a bit of the old guild-craft sense of community among artists. Enough of the elders take the responsiblity to shepherd the acolytes that anyone who takes his art seriously can be assured of finding out how to avoid having it deteriorate after purchase...

No, this statement is not factual. It is a cute thing to believe though, if one is into fairy tales and the like. You are romanticizing the profession unnecessarily. Why is this?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

No, this statement is not factual. It is a cute thing to believe though, if one is into fairy tales and the like. You are romanticizing the profession unnecessarily. Why is this?

I'm not romanticizing anything! I live in a community full of artists--painters, sculptors, photographers, weavers, ceramicists, photographers, ironworkers, woodworkers, and others I probably can't describe. Humboldt County, CA, (last time I checked) has the largest percentage of artists and craftsmen in its population of all U.S. counties. I know enough of these people, well enough, to speak for them in response to your blatant disrespect.

Your opinions are pretty suspect, young man! I know even more musicians than artists because I am one, and you dissed us in the same breath. Your insistence that one needs a university degree to be a good artist--something that isn't even required for a good electrician or a good auto mechanic!--is pure bullshit.

You're too young to be such a curmudgeon. Lighten up.

BTW, I have a university degree like most of the people on SciForums. It just doesn't happen to be in the fine arts.

And now you're implying that because I play in an original Celtic rock-and-roll band (ever hear of U2, the Cranberries, Loreena McKennitt or Sally Oldfield? that is "great art" by anyone's standards) instead of a symphony orchestra, that I can't be regarded as a real musician? I find Beethoven to be mind-numbing boring, and I've heard plenty of great performances by my friends who work in that genre of music. I find it hard to appreciate any "classical" music prior to the Impressionists. By my measure, that is truly "once-great art that has outlived its time."

 

[Gustav]

hell yeah
two old geezers in a smackdown

:itold: :itold:

 

[Gustav]

I live in a community full of artists--painters, sculptors, photographers, weavers, ceramicists, photographers, ironworkers, woodworkers, and others I probably can't describe. Humboldt County, CA, (last time I checked) has the largest percentage of artists and craftsmen in its population of all U.S. counties. I know enough of these people, well enough, to speak for them in response to your blatant disrespect.

*We had a storm in the Washington DC region last week.

*I have a four-wheel-drive Mercedes SUV, and my commute is in the direction opposite to the traffic (from suburban Maryland north of Washington, due east toward the southern Baltimore suburbs), and as a former skier I know how to drive in snow (although tire chains are not allowed here), so I didn't have any trouble blasting through the snowdrifts on back roads with light traffic.

jes saying........

 

[Stoniphi]

Uh.....Gustav does have a point, Frag, and it is the same one that I make - you appear to be contradicting yourself a lot here.

...Your insistence that one needs a university degree to be a good artist..

In order to ascertain the validity of your statement, would you be so kind as to quote me where I said this exactly? Alternatively, you can drop the intended smear as unsubstantiated.

....Humboldt County, CA, (last time I checked) has the largest percentage of artists and craftsmen in its population of all U.S. counties. I know enough of these people, well enough, to speak for them in response to your blatant disrespect....

Well, they do produce between 3 and 4 billion dollars US a year worth of marijuana, I will grant you that, though you failed to mention it. Or is it your contention that farming pot is an art, which would make all those pot farmers some kind of 'artist' ?

Gee - more "artists and craftsmen" (what - no craftswomen???!) than anywhere else in the US, eh? Even 'Frisco? NYC? Santa Fe? Paducah? Chicago? I will need some verification of the factuality of this statement before I will buy it because I think it is complete hooey.

You are making some pretty wild assumptions about me, what I know and do and what circles I move in. Please try to rein in your imagination and self - aggrandizement a bit..... :itold: .

What - you got 2 - 3 years on me and I am a young whipper - snapper? Oy!

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

jes saying........

My home is in Humboldt County and my wife is there waiting patiently for me to make enough money to retire and come home to stay--and doing the remodeling, deferred maintenance and landscaping on our retirement palace. (Hence I'm somewhat familiar with the standards for the work of plumbers, carpenters, electricians, glazers, roofers, etc.) I had to come out to Washington several years ago because it's the only place where there's work. (The government takes all of our money and if we want some of it back we have to follow it. Even during the Great Depression when unemployment was 25% nationally it was only 10% here and men came to Washington to set up shoe-shine stands. It was the only city in the country where a significant number of people could afford to pay someone to shine their shoes.) We fly back and forth to see each other when we can.

And there's a Mercedes 4x4 at both addresses.

Uh.....Gustav does have a point, Frag, and it is the same one that I make - you appear to be contradicting yourself a lot here.

Well I hope I cleared that one up. My driver's license and voter registration are in California; my auto license and my dogs' licenses are in Maryland. The IRS coined a beautiful oxymoronic term for this that only a government agency could have thought of: "two primary residences."

In order to ascertain the validity of your statement, would you be so kind as to quote me where I said this exactly? Alternatively, you can drop the intended smear as unsubstantiated.

Please forgive me if I misunderstood. But reading back over your posts it certainly seems like you're saying that it's nearly impossible to produce great art without having a university degree in one's precise discipline. You even cited at least one example of the challenges that famous people without degrees faced. That would imply that by having a degree in business administration I can't possibly be a competent musician--when in my observation the single greatest problem that makes success difficult for most musicians is lack of business acumen. My friend's son's band is quite successful, as measured by CD sales and attendance at their concerts, and their music is well-crafted (if you happen to like death-metal), but they do stupid things like going off on a month-long tour and leaving the furnace in their house running--in Chicago in Novermber!

Well, they do produce between 3 and 4 billion dollars US a year worth of marijuana, I will grant you that, though you failed to mention it. Or is it your contention that farming pot is an art, which would make all those pot farmers some kind of 'artist'?

Apparently you've never been to Eureka, much less Aracata or the smaller hamlets like Ferndale. You meet an artist every time you turn around and sometimes it seems like there's a gallery on every block. As for the drugs, well artist communities are famous for their bohemian customs.

Gee - more "artists and craftsmen" (what - no craftswomen???!) than anywhere else in the US, eh? Even 'Frisco? NYC? Santa Fe? Paducah? Chicago?

Perhaps I should have used the statistician's phrase per capita instead of a clumsy English translation. The whole county has only 100,000 people.

I will need some verification of the factuality of this statement before I will buy it because I think it is complete hooey.

How dare you challenge the objectivity of the brochures the chamber of commerce hands out to tourists.

What - you got 2 - 3 years on me and I am a young whipper - snapper? Oy!

I'm 67 so that would make you a Baby Boomer. (Two and a half years put you right at the beginning of the Boom). Your generation catalyzed a lot of much-needed progress in this country, particularly in the arts. But you're still whippersnappers to us War Babies.