Can fate and free will co-exist?
- Thread starter Adam
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I do think you start to understand the concept of determinism (fate), Joeman. The problem is that no alternative can be proven.
But a possible co-existence is an interesting topic. Intersting, but I wait to see how the discussion develops.... is it going on at a theological, a psychological, or at a physical level?
("Ik kijk de kat nog even uit de boom")
Merlijn
But a possible co-existence is an interesting topic. Intersting, but I wait to see how the discussion develops.... is it going on at a theological, a psychological, or at a physical level?
("Ik kijk de kat nog even uit de boom")
Merlijn
Merlijn
I brought this topic up in a previous thread. I think that there is no randomness in the sense of disordered chaos. Random simply means we do not know what the outcome will be, or the means by which the outcome is acheived. The outcome is not independent from the event, simple enough.
Now apply that whole blurb to life and Adam, you have my opinion on your question; in a way, yes.
I brought this topic up in a previous thread. I think that there is no randomness in the sense of disordered chaos. Random simply means we do not know what the outcome will be, or the means by which the outcome is acheived. The outcome is not independent from the event, simple enough.
Now apply that whole blurb to life and Adam, you have my opinion on your question; in a way, yes.
I would like to believe so. You know, I hate to admit it but there have been instances in my life that I could not figure out why these awfuls things kept happening to me - and they are still happening. But years later I can look back and say "Damn, Im glad that happened" Its like everything happens for a reason. I look at my aunt dying at a very young age and thinking maybe something more horrible would of happened to her years later so it was best that she went back then. But I dont believe in a god so I cant explain these things.
Adam , I hate to say this, but arguing with people who believe in fate is about as fruitful as arguing with a christian. No matter what you say, do, or feel... it's fate. or god's will, in their case.
Shouldn't have mentioned that G word, of course, but they amount to the same thing.
Shouldn't have mentioned that G word, of course, but they amount to the same thing.
Just as in Minority Report, humans will always have the option to choose, free will. Although one may 'predict' the most likely outcome, but it may change.
It is not a question of fate, because there is no such thing. It's the things you do that lead to it, any type of 'fate.'
Nothing also happens randomly, it is all affected by chance, concerning with human life, chance is affected by what we do.
Let's say you are to flip a coin, prediction, or you could say fate possibly, would predict a 50/50 chance head and tails situation. But how you flip that coin, how high above the ground, the way you flick your thumb etc, is affecting the chances of it landing on either side.
Or another, let's say you are to come across a car crash because some idiot decides to run the light. Before the incident, you could've slowed down or go faster to not "crash." But many fate believers would say it happened by fate. But ONE cannot deny the fact that IF you slowed down you wouldn't be in the accident.
They are compatible.
See it this way, If someone makes a game with two alternative endings. The story and possibilities are already determined, but the gamer still has a choice.
Now if the maker of the game knows before hand EXACTLY how the gamer thinks, so that he takes out all the choices he won't make, you end up with a beforehand determined story, In witch the gamer has a free will.
How is that?
See it this way, If someone makes a game with two alternative endings. The story and possibilities are already determined, but the gamer still has a choice.
Now if the maker of the game knows before hand EXACTLY how the gamer thinks, so that he takes out all the choices he won't make, you end up with a beforehand determined story, In witch the gamer has a free will.
How is that?
I say free will. but I will say that I think it is the nature of certain things to fall into place togather, and that there are barriers that prevent our lives from taking certain courses. I'm also not against the idea of there being things that influence our lives that we don't understand. I don't necessarily mean god, but I do think that people, events and the movement thereof all have a certain nature that helps guide them...or maybe it's just a "bodies in motion" kind of thing, and once someone or starts moving in a certain "direction", it will be natural to continue on that path...which will, in turn, naturally intersect with other paths.
That's basically all bullshit. It's just basically the only way I can think of to explain the idea that we have free will, but not necessarily control, at least not all the time. Besides, who wants control?
That's basically all bullshit. It's just basically the only way I can think of to explain the idea that we have free will, but not necessarily control, at least not all the time. Besides, who wants control?
That is restricting it too much. You are saying as if God controlled certain elements so that you would meet that fate no matter "what" you choose, or what free will options you would have. Doesn't really work that way.
I ain't sayin' that.
I am saying He gave us free will AND in his infinit wisdome and being outside Time, He knew the scenarios that were obsulete and erased them.
So in fact we choose and that wich we didn't choose was deleted.
I am saying He gave us free will AND in his infinit wisdome and being outside Time, He knew the scenarios that were obsulete and erased them.
So in fact we choose and that wich we didn't choose was deleted.
The question is moot
I think fate is only a useful idea if we ask the question 'what fate?', because then we would make a choice to accept or reject it. If we just 'let fate happen by itself' then it can't really be described as fate, just as 'what happened'. It cannot exist without looking back at it, so, like my 'patience principle', its existence depends on how we observe it.
The Bible doesn't differentiate between free will and predetermination. Since God knows everything, there can be no uncertaintly, and since He is not subjected to time, whether something has, is, or will happen is irrelevant to the outcome. According to the Bible the outcome is fixed. Our 'free will' consists of whether we choose accept that outcome or not, and our acceptance determines our inclusion or exclusion from that "fate".
Imagine you could avoid death. If everybody could avoid it, death wouldn't exist. Sin, as well: if everybody weren't able, willing, or wanting to sin, then sin would be scrapped from the dictionary. Does that mean death is predetermined, or sin is inevitable? So someone would have to 'choose' death, and 'conquer' sin, so that we were able to make the decision in the first place! People wouldn't have known this if Jesus didn't tell us this, so *even if* we could create God to fill voids and whatnot, we couldn't have expected what Jesus would do until after He'd done it, because we didn't have the choice. We had laws, why would anybody 'invent' Jesus? That is why the no-one can know God except through Jesus.
I think fate is only a useful idea if we ask the question 'what fate?', because then we would make a choice to accept or reject it. If we just 'let fate happen by itself' then it can't really be described as fate, just as 'what happened'. It cannot exist without looking back at it, so, like my 'patience principle', its existence depends on how we observe it.
The Bible doesn't differentiate between free will and predetermination. Since God knows everything, there can be no uncertaintly, and since He is not subjected to time, whether something has, is, or will happen is irrelevant to the outcome. According to the Bible the outcome is fixed. Our 'free will' consists of whether we choose accept that outcome or not, and our acceptance determines our inclusion or exclusion from that "fate".
Imagine you could avoid death. If everybody could avoid it, death wouldn't exist. Sin, as well: if everybody weren't able, willing, or wanting to sin, then sin would be scrapped from the dictionary. Does that mean death is predetermined, or sin is inevitable? So someone would have to 'choose' death, and 'conquer' sin, so that we were able to make the decision in the first place! People wouldn't have known this if Jesus didn't tell us this, so *even if* we could create God to fill voids and whatnot, we couldn't have expected what Jesus would do until after He'd done it, because we didn't have the choice. We had laws, why would anybody 'invent' Jesus? That is why the no-one can know God except through Jesus.