BP Oil Spill: Effects on us, and perhaps the future?

adoucette said:
They didn't KILL PEOPLE. People died in an accident. BIG DIFFERENCE.
The difference would be settled in court, normally, when negligence of this persistence and consequence is involved. Often both sides agree to a judge handling things, waiving jury trial, to assure the necessary expertise - but a jury trial might be a good idea here.
adoucette said:
What official docs did they lie on and what were these lies?
Their spill mitigation plan, which was legally required (and promised) to be written for the well being drilled, appears to have been written for the Arctic Ocean and years out of date. That would be fraud - a violation of the law. That's one for sure.
adoucette said:
What financial liability did they conceal?
The amount of oil they spilled, for starters.
adoucette said:
When EPA asked them to change them they gave them an out, the out was IF they could come up with a less toxic one. BP's tests showed they couldn't and eventually the EPA agreed with them.
Another matter to settle in court - including their motives for dispersing the oil away from any possibility of measurement, collection, or containment.
adoucette said:
Don't know that the Republicans have blocked them, they simply sent it to the Judiciary committee
That's how blocking is done. What would you guess their motives were?
adoucette said:
BP has released their internal investigative report on the events leading up to the spill.
More documents for the court to consider, in the trial.

If there is one.
 
The difference would be settled in court, normally, when negligence of this persistence and consequence is involved. Often both sides agree to a judge handling things, waiving jury trial, to assure the necessary expertise - but a jury trial might be a good idea here.

No it wouldn't. If they KILLED people then it's homicide and someone would be charged with that crime. Except no one has been charged with a crime and at this point there does not look like anyone will be charged with a crime. I've read all the reports, there is no smoking gun, nothing that rises to the level of a CRIMINAL charge.

Their spill mitigation plan, which was legally required (and promised) to be written for the well being drilled, appears to have been written for the Arctic Ocean and years out of date. That would be fraud - a violation of the law. That's one for sure.

Not at all, if you bothered to actually look it doesn't look like it was written for the Arctic ocean at all (even if some boiler plate got into it that referenced Arctic animals), but that's beside the point, the Spill Mitigation plan was in fact submitted and approved by the MMS. Unless you can show evidence that they BRIBED the MMS to accept the plan there is no Fraud.

The amount of oil they spilled, for starters.
How many times must I point this out, ALL the estimates of the spill rate came from the Government, not from BP. First from NOAA and then from the Tech Flow Committee.

Another matter to settle in court - including their motives for dispersing the oil away from any possibility of measurement, collection, or containment.

Dispersants are pre-approved for use in an Oil spill. The EPA specifically allowed (and monitored) the deep sea injection of dispersants. The scientific feeling (both at the time and so far) is that the injection of dispersants was an overall very good thing.

That's how blocking is done. What would you guess their motives were?
That's also normal procedure. My guess would be to deal with the limits and extent of any Subpeona power.

Arthur
 
adoucette said:
No it wouldn't. If they KILLED people then it's homicide and someone would be charged with that crime.
There are degrees of homicide. Here's one that might apply: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_homicide
adoucette said:
Not at all, if you bothered to actually look it doesn't look like it was written for the Arctic ocean at all (even if some boiler plate got into it that referenced Arctic animals), but that's beside the point, the Spill Mitigation plan was in fact submitted and approved by the MMS. Unless you can show evidence that they BRIBED the MMS to accept the plan there is no Fraud.
The many and multiple defects in the plan indicated that it was years - possibly decades - out of date, and written for a completely different environment and a much shallower, more tractable well.

Whether it slipped by from negligence, incompetence, or bribery, it was not the plan required by law for that well. Presenting it as such was fraud.
adoucette said:
The scientific feeling (both at the time and so far) is that the injection of dispersants was an overall very good thing.
That is not true.

http://1planet1ocean.org/leading-oc...nsus-statement-to-end-dispersant-use-in-gulf/
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/gulf-dispersants/
http://healthygulf.org/201006041337...e-gulf-of-mexico/a-closer-look-at-dispersants
http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2010...ersant-mix-making-its-way-into-the-foodchain/
http://blog.al.com/live/2010/05/dispersants_used_on_gulf_oil_s.html
http://www.reefrelieffounders.com/d...scientists-opposed-to-the-use-of-dispersants/

A solid investigation, with email and phone records subpoenaed and all that normal stuff, might determine whether BP's use of dispersants was an attempt to conceal the amount of oil being dumped, or otherwise minimize it s liability.
 
There are degrees of homicide. Here's one that might apply: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_homicide

NOPE, no way was that accident Negligent homicide. You are grasping at straws.

The many and multiple defects in the plan indicated that it was years - possibly decades - out of date, and written for a completely different environment and a much shallower, more tractable well.

Whether it slipped by from negligence, incompetence, or bribery, it was not the plan required by law for that well. Presenting it as such was fraud.

Again, the plan was presented and approved by the MMS so it can't legally be a FRAUD.

I'm not sure anymore that you know what that word means.


Absolutely not.

Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Lisa P. Jackson testimony on Sept. 27.


EPA knew, based on previous surface dispersant applications, that they were generally less toxic than crude, they decreased the risks to the shorelines and to organisms on the water’s surface, and they biodegraded over weeks or days instead of years as oil does, she noted. “However, all the potential long-term effects of the dispersant application on aquatic life, and the unprecedented volume applied in this response—almost 1.8 million gal—certainly warranted caution,” she said.

BP initially asked EPA on Apr. 30 to use dispersants in a novel manner—underwater, at the leak’s source, Jackson told the commission. “The goal of this approach was to break up and degrade the oil before it reached the water’s surface and came closer to our shorelines, our estuaries, and our marine nurseries,” she said.

Since this approach had never been tried, Jackson said that EPA asked BP to provide specific scientific data proving that such an application would actually be effective. Once it determined that the process was working, EPA then ordered BP to implement a rigorous monitoring system and track measurable environmental impacts by monitoring dissolved oxygen and toxicity, she said. It conditionally approved BP’s request on May 14 after making clear to the company that EPA reserved the right to withdraw its approval if environmental impacts outweighed benefits of dispersing the oil.

USCG approval of the subsea application was based on conditions resulting from only have the dispersant option on some days, combined with trying to secure the source of the crude oil release, according to Rear Adm. Mary E. Landry from the US Department of Homeland Security agency’s eight district in New Orleans. When we approved the subsea injection, we felt there could be a reduction in the amount of dispersants used,” she told the commission. “In the final weeks of May, trying to secure the source was critical for the workers’ health and mitigating the impacts on the shoreline.”

Landry said she was aware of the obligations imposed on BP by requiring it to ask daily for permission to use the dispersants, but added: “We had an overall goal of reducing the amounts used and accomplished this over time.”

“The good news is that we did not see significant short-term environmental impacts of using dispersants,” Jackson said. “We did not, and continue to not see, diminished levels of dissolved oxygen. This is a good indicator of overall aquatic health and we saw normal levels in testing near the rig site, where subsurface dispersants were applied. We also saw no significant toxic effects on rotifers, which are sensitive organisms that act as the ‘canary in the coal mine’ for water health.”

Water monitoring continues to indicate that dispersants have not been found in waters on or near the shoreline, she continued. Of more than 2,000 samples generated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and nearly 1,200 generated by EPA, Jackson said that only two were above the method detection limit but well below health limits. “While these detections were likely caused by problems with the testing devices, they were immediately investigated and the areas re-sampled,” she said. “In both cases, follow-up testing indicated a ‘nondetection’ of dispersant.”

http://www.ogj.com/index/article-di...-2/hse/2010/09/more-dispersants_research.html

Arthur
 
adoucette said:
NOPE, no way was that accident Negligent homicide.
Well if you put it in capital letters, I guess that settles the matter.

Be interesting to see what a subpoena turns up, about what risks BP knew it was taking with those lives on that rig, especially after the well had established a pattern of behaving badly and their contractor shortcut the safety procedures anyway.
adoucette said:
Again, the plan was presented and approved by the MMS so it can't legally be a FRAUD.
Why not? It contains lies and deceptions, purports to be something it isn't, and was submitted in lieu of the required documents under pretense of fulfilling those requirements.

Deceiving a government official is yet another crime, btw.
adoucette said:
Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Lisa P. Jackson testimony on Sept. 27.
One good reason for a solid investigation would be to figure out what the EPA officials involved knew and when they knew it.
 
The actual event occurred over a quite short period of time, with no contact with the home office in Houston so claiming anyone off the rig could be charged with Negligent Homicide is a real stretch.

They were closing the well..
The people on the Rig cemented the well in accordance with a plan approved by people skilled in the arts of cementing. The success of the cement job was tested by a negative pressure test and in this test the people on the rig MISREAD the test results. Because their own lives were on the line, it's hard to argue that they did not take this test seriously, so no matter how you try to twist this, that error in interpretation of a test result would not rise to the level of Negligent Homicide.

Had they NOT performed the test, then yes, but to do it and to review it with the appropriate people and come to an incorrect conclusion is NOT Negligent Homicide. Sure in Bizzaro World, some over zealous prosecuter could charge the people who misread the test with Negligent Homicide but that Criminal charge against these individuals STILL wouldn't significantly have an impact to BP's financials, which is the actual point. (nor would a sane jury convict them)

As to the Fraud on the plan. The plan is submitted for APPROVAL by the MMS. The MMS is the one who reviews the plan and determines if the plan is sufficient. They reviewed it and approved it and they are supposed to understand oil drilling and it is their responsibility to ensure the plan is sufficient, thus no Fraud even if it turns out the plan was not really sufficient.

As to the plan containing lies and deceptions you make that assertion but you haven't actually shown any.

As to the dispersents, again, the EPA knew about them, and approved their use on a day by day basis. The assertion you made that "BP's use of dispersants was an attempt to conceal the amount of oil being dumped", has no merit since the amount of oill spilled was primarily determined by video analysis of the flow and the other physical means of estimating the spill took into account that dispersants were being used (as well as skimmed, pumped up and burnt).

As to your constant harping that BP did X, Y or Z to reduce their liability as if that is something that is inherently wrong. Everybody wanted BP to limit their liability by containing the spill and preventing damage to the shore, so the entire line of argument makes no sense.

There is no evidence that there won't be a solid investigation.

Arthur
 
If Republicans block the investigating committee from recieving subpoena power, then there cannot be.

First of all, that hasn't happened and secondly that's only true if companies withhold requested data or refuse to testify, so in both cases you are getting the cart in front of the horse.

Also the Justice Dept has been running an investigation into this for some time to see if there was anything criminal done and they do have subpoena power and I presume would turn over any material they find to the congressional investigation. So far nothing has come of it.

Arthur
 
adoucette said:
The actual event occurred over a quite short period of time,
The well had been behaving badly for weeks - and there was a history of BP having trouble with wells, filing false documents, etc, for years prior.
adoucette said:
First of all, that hasn't happened and secondly that's only true if companies withhold requested data or refuse to testify,
Subpoenas are an early step in establishing such behavior. They are routine, in these circumstances. They are currently being blocked by the Republican Party's Congressional reps, for some reason.
adoucette said:
As to the plan containing lies and deceptions you make that assertion but you haven't actually shown any.
It was written for a completely different environment, and listed dead people as filling official roles - filing something like that in lieu of proper forms is itself a lie and a deception.
adoucette said:
As to the dispersents, again, the EPA knew about them, and approved their use on a day by day basis.
As the link above (to one of the relevant EPA documents and claims) shows, that "approval" is not established by the evidence. Approval obtained by deception and dishonesty, or apparent untoward influence of some kind, is normally investigated as a criminal matter, with testimony compelled by subpoena.
adoucette said:
As to your constant harping that BP did X, Y or Z to reduce their liability as if that is something that is inherently wrong.
It is something that would normally be investigated, seriously and thoroughly, with subpoenaed testimony and so forth.
adoucette said:
The MMS is the one who reviews the plan and determines if the plan is sufficient. They reviewed it and approved it and they are supposed to understand oil drilling and it is their responsibility to ensure the plan is sufficient, thus no Fraud even if it turns out the plan was not really sufficient.
Fraud does not magically stop being fraud when it is successful at defrauding the government. Obtaining benefits from the government through lies and deception is a crime, even if the benefits are actually obtained.
adoucette said:
There is no evidence that there won't be a solid investigation.
There is no evidence that there will be a solid investigation. By now, there should be. Hence the discussion.
 
You really need to provide support for your assertions.

As to the Well, it doesn't matter that it had been 'behaving badly' since they were sealing the well, not trying to produce from it.

I've seen no evidence from you to support the assertion that BP had a 'history of trouble with wells' nor, as far as I know, no other leaks at all like this, so it would not be relevant to a Negligent Homicide charge on THIS well.

What false documents do you have evidence they filed that would be relevant to a Negligent Homicide investigation?

You appear to be just throwing out unsubstantiated charges.

As to the plan, it was NOT written for a completely different environment. There was a large Regional plan that covers general spill handling for any spills in that area and also a specific plan for that well. You obviously have not actually bothered to read the plans. There is some boiler plate in it that lists what to do for some animals that wouldn't actually be in the Gulf, but SO WHAT? That's MORE info than is needed, and does not indicate that the plan didn't address the animals in the Gulf region.

Since the Area plan is continually updated it's entirely possible that you will find phone numbers that go out of service, web sites that change or someone who might have died since the plan was first submitted and that name wasn't updated, but its only fraud if they listed the person knowing he was dead. You appear once again grasping at straws since the MMC has not said that the plan was fraudulent.

As to the Dispersants it's clear that they were in fact approved by the EPA. In fact their use was approved on a day by day basis.

EPA asked BP to provide specific scientific data proving that such an application would actually be effective. Once it determined that the process was working, EPA then ordered BP to implement a rigorous monitoring system and track measurable environmental impacts by monitoring dissolved oxygen and toxicity, she said.
It conditionally approved BP’s request on May 14.

You assert that this approval was obtained by deception and dishonesty, but again you offer no evidence to even suggest this was the case, nor has the USCG or the EPA ever suggested this was the case.

Actually there are many investigations into all aspects of the spill. Your suggestion that there is not just shows you aren't aware of what is actually going on. TransOcean has its investigation ongoing into the issues with the Rig and Drilling procedures, Halliburton has its investigation ongoing into the cementing operation. Cameron has its investigation ongoing as to the failure of the BOP. Congress already did a bit of one and Obama's panel is just starting their investigation. The Justice dept began its criminal and civil investigation on June 1st. They are far reaching and include investigating violations of the Clean Water Act, the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the Endangered Species Act. It is now 4 months later no one has been charged with any crimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/us/02spill.html

Arthur
 
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adoucette said:
Since the Area plan is continually updated it's entirely possible that you will find phone numbers that go out of service, web sites that change or someone who might have died since the plan was first submitted and that name wasn't updated, but its only fraud if they listed the person knowing he was dead.
Hence the need for subpoenas. Hello?
adoucette said:
Actually there are many investigations into all aspects of the spill. Your suggestion that there is not just shows you aren't aware of what is actually going on. TransOcean has its investigation ongoing into the issues with the Rig and Drilling procedures, Halliburton has its investigation ongoing into the cementing operation. Cameron has its investigation ongoing as to the failure of the BOP.
! Couldn't have said it better myself - or Jon Stewart. Comedy gold.
adoucette said:
You really need to provide support for your assertions.
- - - -
As to the Dispersants it's clear that they were in fact approved by the EPA.
So your objection to the evidence I linked for you is what, exactly?

And your objection to compelled testimony and subpoenaed records - what is it?
 
Don't know why you think that the companies that are knowlegeable and responsible for various parts of a complex drilling operation are doing internal investigations is comedy gold. It might be if they were the only investigations, but clearly they are not and the information they uncover will eventually make it to the full investigation. What you seem to miss is that the companies have a huge incentive to find out what went wrong with this well, their procedures and the equipment used. Besides the 11 men who died, the huge cost of the cleanup, the Deep Horizon Rig alone is worth over a Billion dollars.

The subpeona power issue you keep raising is a red herring. The Justice department, four months into its investigation, HAS subpoena power and doesn't need congressional approval for it.

Arthur
 
So your objection to the evidence I linked for you is what, exactly?

The DATE on them.

Yours, from back in May, June and July were all about concerns of what could happen, but the data I posted was from late September and tells a quite different story of what has happened.

“The good news is that we did not see significant short-term environmental impacts of using dispersants,” Jackson said. “We did not, and continue to not see, diminished levels of dissolved oxygen. This is a good indicator of overall aquatic health and we saw normal levels in testing near the rig site, where subsurface dispersants were applied. We also saw no significant toxic effects on rotifers, which are sensitive organisms that act as the ‘canary in the coal mine’ for water health.”

Water monitoring continues to indicate that dispersants have not been found in waters on or near the shoreline, she continued. Of more than 2,000 samples generated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and nearly 1,200 generated by EPA, Jackson said that only two were above the method detection limit but well below health limits. “While these detections were likely caused by problems with the testing devices, they were immediately investigated and the areas re-sampled,” she said. “In both cases, follow-up testing indicated a ‘nondetection’ of dispersant.”

Arthur
 
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adoucette said:
Yours, from back in May, June and July were all about concerns of what could happen,
Back then is when the alleged approval would have had to have happened.

It seems to have been a confused situation, with BP lying throughout, and not following required precautionary procedures, etc - hence, the legitimacy of any actual approval remains speculative.

Let's give the issue its day in hearings, with thorough investigation supporting all testimony.

adoucette said:
The subpeona power issue you keep raising is a red herring. The Justice department, four months into its investigation, HAS subpoena power and doesn't need congressional approval for it.
The hearings would obviously be of wider scope than a focused investigation of a particular crime. And the testimony would be public - which helps to control for the problem of BP's influence over the DOJ. The DOJ has a poor record of rigorous action, when large oil companies are involved - they settle, by custom, on industry favoring terms, and restrict their investigations to narrow and unthreatening issues, and keep their evidence secret barring actual trial.

In particular, they are entirely too cozy with BP, as in the past. They have not even threatened to revoke BP's probation from the deaths of contract workers in that Texas refinery.
quoted source said:
“The good news is that we did not see significant short-term environmental impacts of using dispersants,” Jackson said. “We did not, and continue to not see, diminished levels of dissolved oxygen. This is a good indicator of overall aquatic health and we saw normal levels in testing near the rig site, where subsurface dispersants were applied. We also saw no significant toxic effects on rotifers,
Without public testimony, we have little reason to trust happy talk from people who have an obvious conflict of interest in uncovering real trouble; trouble that would be partly their fault, and largely expensive to their friends in the industry etc
 
Ok, so your position is you can't trust the DOJ or the EPA?

Yeah, that Lisa Jackson, she's a real pal with the oil companies.

LOL

Arthur
 
Encouraging news.

http://blog.al.com/live/2010/10/offshore_world_looks_good_afte.html

The video is short, but worth watching.

BP has now spent $11 Billion on the cleanup.

The $20 Billion fund which the Govt is administering to compensate victims has been funded with $3 Billion from BP and will get another $2 Billion by the end of this year and then $1.25 Billion every three months until the end of 2013.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...il-spill-Gulf-of-Mexico-bill-hits-11.2bn.html

Arthur
 
adoucette said:
Ok, so your position is you can't trust the DOJ or the EPA?
Not the DOJ, for sure - their history in dealing with large scale crimes and difficult corporate political influences is one of borderline cowardice at best, and they are still dealing with the significant damage done to them, as an organization, by the previous two terms of utterly corrupt administration. They haven't been rehabbed yet.

As far as the EPA, we don't even know if they have been told the ingredients of the dispersants used, let alone have any solid notion of how they should be used - and BP basically did whatever they wanted to, in this spill, blowing smoke up their administrative ass the whole way. Injecting dispersants into the stream from the well itself, a mile down and under the thermocline and the scattering zone, into the deepwater currents? Jesus Christ on a crutch.

Years from now, if the proper studies are ever done, we may get some idea of what that Corexit et al did, and where it and the oil it dispersed all ended up. So far one immediate possibility - huge plumes of dead zone in the midwaters of the Gulf, caused by the midwater scattering layer being poisoned and the rot absorbing the oxygen - seems to have not happened. Unless they've missed them. Yay.

But no, politically suspect happy talk from an EPA still reeling from the Bush years, with their collective ass on the line for a display of impotence and incapability that would be the main story here if we weren't so accustomed to such scenes, is not all that reassuring - especially when it seems to be invoked as a reason to cut back on the investigations political-side and the acquisition of data environment-side.
 
Talk about blowing smoke.

The DOJ has subpoena power and far better investigators than Congress and is headed by an Obama appointed AJ, so there is no reason to believe they can't handle this investigation. Indeed, only the DOJ could pursue the CRIMINAL charges you suggested, that's not a function of a Congressional committee.

As to research, BP is funding $500 million over 10 years towards independent studies on the impact on the Gulf.

http://channel6newsonline.com/2010/...-for-implementing-bps-500-million-initiative/

The EPA knew exactly what was in Corexit and approved its subsea use from day one.

Arthur
 
The result of the objection to "unanimous consent" was that the items under discussion stay in Committee/kept their current place on the Calendar and did not immediately go before Senate for a vote.

In other words, blocked.

Not the way I read it.

This was sent to Committee on 6/8

According to Senate Rules:

When introduced, legislative measures are referred to the standing Committee of the Senate which has jurisdiction over the proposal. Similarly, after the House of Representatives passes proposed legislation that has not yet been considered in the Senate, the bill is referred to the Committee with jurisdiction once it is received by the Senate.

But the Senate Judiciary Committee has 12 Democrats, including the Chairman, Leahy, and only need 9 votes to send it back to the Senate for consideration.

http://judiciary.senate.gov/about/members.cfm

Arthur
 
hopefully the Gov will see to it that most of those people are reasonably compensated by the fund that BP has set up.

It's still early in the claims process. The Gov took over the fund a bit over a month ago from BP, but there does seem to be a growing sense of dissatisfaction with the speed of the process and the paperwork required.

(From independent reports, BP had a very effective claims process set up when the Gov took it over and that process of moving the operation logistically slowed everything down. While it might be better in the long run for the Gov to run this instead of BP, the timing of the switch was not very helpful to those who need funds to stay afloat)

The Gov's side is so many claims come in without the required documentation and they are seeing a lot of fraud.

A lot of Gulf workers claim its a cash business and not much paperwork exists, others say they know they have been hurt, but can't prove it because they are not proximate to the Gulf, etc etc.

The net is that so far less than 1/2 Billion in claims has been paid out, which considering the number of people affected seems very small.

The Administrator, in response, seems to be loosening up the requirements and recently removed proximity to the Gulf (a big step) as a requirement for compensation.

Arthur
 
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