Boys like girls and you have to keep them separated

Men are still the majority of abusers in both cases.

Men are also the majority of victims! How can men be both abusers and victims well because men are not a single entity, but needing to see them as the abusers all the time is necessary for our social stereotyping.

Rape isn't about sex; it's a crime.

I disagree, rape is a a whole class of events, in some cases it is about nothing more then sex, in other cases its about making someone your bitch and oppressing them in the most humiliating way possible.
 
Men are also the majority of victims! How can men be both abusers and victims well because men are not a single entity, but needing to see them as the abusers all the time is necessary for our social stereotyping.



I disagree, rape is a a whole class of events, in some cases it is about nothing more then sex, in other cases its about making someone your bitch and oppressing them in the most humiliating way possible.

No, you're wrong. Rape is about achieving power and control through sex. It's not EVER an act based solely on sex. No, that is a very inaccurate statement, with all due respect.

Rape is an act of force, always. ALWAYS. Sex is about degradation for a rapist, not about attraction. Men who rape women in the military aren't doing so because they 'want some.' There are plenty of opportunities that arise where I'm sure they can find a willing participant. Raping their peers is an act of rage, and it is to show these women...'who's boss.' It is not always a violent act, but it is an act based on one person coercing another person against his/her will, to have sex. Whether that is violently arrived at, or not...doesn't make it any less an act of rape.

I'm worried for our country after reading this thread. Wow.
 
No, you're wrong. Rape is about achieving power and control through sex. It's not an act based solely on sex. No, that is a very inaccurate statement, with all due respect.

Every single case of rape in human history??? I don't think so! Rape can be about many things depending on the individual case of rape, in some cases one forces themselves on the other purely to alleviate their lust for that person, had nothing to do with control and power. Now I don't doubt that most of the cases of rape are power and control issues, but not Every Single Cases Ever. More so not every case of rape is equally wrong, when a teenager nags or inebriates another teenager into sex against his/her better judgement, its no the same as violating every orifice of a person's body while holding them at gun point. Fuck when a 19 year old has purely consensual sex with a 17 year old its classified as 'Rape' in some places!

Rape is an act of force, always. ALWAYS. Sex is about degradation for a rapist, not about attraction. Men who rape women in the military aren't doing so because they 'want some.' There are plenty of opportunities that arise where I'm sure they can find a willing participant. Raping their peers is an act of rage, and it is to show these women...'who's boss.'

Again the majority of cases in the military is men sexually assulting men, not women.

I'm worried for our country after reading this thread. Wow.

Me too! Ideologs like you are an extreme problem: propping this issue of sexual assault in the military as the stereotypical man abusing women issue to further their ideologue and ignoring all nuance that threatens that stereotype, your just as bad as the ideologs that blame women in the military or blame homosexuals for this.
 
I spent 20 years of my life in the U.S. Army, so I think I know a thing or two about how the military works.

I was an instructor at Aberdeen Proving Ground back in 1996 when the last "sex scandal" came forth. It was actually my Battalion Commander that brought the entire subject to light because he refused to accept (and rightfully so) that ranking individuals with authority over young privates were acting unprofessional and using their authority inappropriately. We had several mandatory briefings at 0430 in the morning where he "trained" us on what was inappropriate behavior. When he started digging he found more and more incidences, the most notorious incident that made headline news was a male Drill Sergeant in my Battalion that raped a young female trainee in his quarters. When all was said and done my Battalion Commander was reprimanded because his soldiers were conducting themselves inappropriately, and since he was the commander, he was responsible! So here's a situation where he demanded the inappropriate behavior cease immediately, he weeded out the thugs, sent many to court martial, sent some to jail, and what does he get in return for trying to fix the problem? A reprimand! Imagine that! He brings to light a problem and starts fixing the problem, and in return he is reprimanded. Make sense to you?
 
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@ Electric Fetus;

This exact rhetoric is why rape will continue to go on in the military...men against men/ and men against women.

I never said anything about stereotypical men...I actually said prior to that post, that men AND women shouldn't be intimidated, in fear, etc...not just women. I'm using women in an example, because that is what the thread topic is about. And I'm not a side taker, by the way. I'm not an ideologue. I just don't want to see people getting hurt in the military, male or female. If you are serving, you are there to protect and defend your country. And you shouldn't have to coexist with others, in fear. So, again...you are wrong, not only about rape, but about me.

Incidentally, your opinion of rape doesn't make it fact. It's about forced sex. Period.
We are not talking about cases where a 17 yr old girl sleeps with her 19 yr old bf. Let's keep it at the topic at hand.

Please don't redefine rape or water it down to mean something it doesn't. If you've known anyone who has been raped...male or female...you'll know it is a traumatic and devastating experience and it's all about power for the rapist.
 
And frankly, these cases should be handled as any other case, in the civilian world. If someone accuses his/her peer of rape, then an investigation should ensue. No 'scandal,' no cover up...no blaming one gender over the other. It should be handled with neutrality of those facts, as any other crime is, outside of the military.

Sexism and the blatant ignorant comments I've read in this thread, have no place in a court of law, when deciding if someone is guilty or not, of rape.

That's all I wanted to add.
 
@ Electric Fetus;

This exact rhetoric is why rape will continue to go on in the military...men against men/ and men against women.

Yes this exact rhetoric: "Men who rape women in the military aren't doing so because they 'want some.' There are plenty of opportunities that arise where I'm sure they can find a willing participant. Raping their peers is an act of rage, and it is to show these women...'who's boss.'"

You didn't think this example was pitting one gender against the other? Your not even aware of your own sexism then!

So, again...you are wrong, not only about rape, but about me.

You state no evidence to prove your case that all rapes ever are about empowerment and control you only say I'm wrong without evidence.

Incidentally, your opinion of rape doesn't make it fact. It's about forced sex. Period.

Forced sex does not mean its about control and power, forcing someone to have sex with you does not mean the forcing was the reason rather then the means to a specific end.

We are not talking about cases where a 17 yr old girl sleeps with her 19 yr old bf. Let's keep it at the topic at hand.

We aren't talking about all rapes either but your the one that says all rapes are the same.

Please don't redefine rape or water it down to mean something it doesn't. If you've known anyone who has been raped...male or female...you'll know it is a traumatic and devastating experience and it's all about power for the rapist.

Again not all rapes are that.
 
In your first example above, I replied to a comment you made...you commented about rape sometimes being solely about sex...or someone 'making someone their bitch.' Scroll back, it's in reply to that. Perhaps, I should have signified that. (and this comment is in reply to your comment that you italicized above)

Beyond that, I will respectfully disagree. I try to be open minded, but I won't accept your subjective 'definition' of rape. I just can't; I'm sorry.

Thanks for the discussion though. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
In your first example above, I replied to a comment you made...you commented about rape sometimes being solely about sex...or someone 'making someone their bitch.' Scroll back, it's in reply to that. Perhaps, I should have signified that. (and this comment is in reply to your comment that you italicized above)

I don't see how that changes anything?

Beyond that, I will respectfully disagree. I try to be open minded, but I won't accept your subjective 'definition' of rape. I just can't; I'm sorry.

Why? Please I want to understand this.
 
Older women and younger man you can weep them together , there might be no problem
Older man and younger women the might be problem
Older man and older women who knows ?
 
Why? Please I want to understand this.

Okay...
In post #47, the part where you started with the word "Forced..." (sorry, using my phone and it is a failure when it comes to multi-quoting)
You seem to think there are reasons other than a perverse desire for power and control that someone rapes another person. (??)
There is no other motive behind rape. Rapists can be school teachers, priests, military personnel..or a random stranger to their victims. And it's not gender specific. Rape is about force, control, domination, and those are the "means" in which they "get off."

The common tie with all rapists is that they seek dominance over their victims. Rape doesn't ask permission...it violates. It steals the dignity of someone. It can physically hurt, emotionally hurt...it is abuse.

I'm not judging you ...for I don't know you as a person. But, I humbly encourage you to change your view on this because it is only your opinion. It honestly isn't fact. Go into a rape survivor clinic with this type of "flexible" definition and doubtful anyone will agree with you.

Hope that better helps state why I respectfully disagree with you.
 
Further, and this might be the most important point here that I want to make...

For the people we are speaking about in the military accused of raping men and women, they would undoubtedly be raping if they were not in the military. Rape is not something a well adjusted healthy minded person does, no matter what conditions they find themselves in.
Of the priests rightfully accused of molesting kids, those priests would be molesters even if they weren't priests. Same for these military men who have raped women. Rape is an act committed by a sick person. Said person needs to be in prison. Not women need to leave the military. Why? To lessen the rapes?

The solution comes in the form of kicking rapists out of the military. And ENFORCING a zero tolerance policy for harassment and sexual abuse or coercion of anyone.

These men didn't start raping because they are stationed with females. They were depraved before joining the military. Joining the military and being around women all the time doesn't turn someone into a rapist, is my point.


So, this will never be about women joining the military at all. :/


This is why when I read about how well, if women weren't in the military, then this wouldn't be happening...I just roll my eyes and think they're missing the whole point and have no clue what rape is about.
 
Okay...
In post #47, the part where you started with the word "Forced..." (sorry, using my phone and it is a failure when it comes to multi-quoting)
You seem to think there are reasons other than a perverse desire for power and control that someone rapes another person. (??)

In some cases yes, "forced" is not the reason for rape in those cases rather it is the means. If I want to have sex with someone and force my self on them the reason I raped them was because I wanted sex from them, domination and control was only means to that end. In other cases rape is purely about domination and control, sexual acts are only to humiliate and subjugate them, in those cases sex is the means and power is the ends. The word rape is an umbrella category that covers all these things and more, that does not mean everything that it defined as rape is the same thing.

There is no other motive behind rape. Rapists can be school teachers, priests, military personnel..or a random stranger to their victims. And it's not gender specific. Rape is about force, control, domination, and those are the "means" in which they "get off."

Nope, not every case of rape is that simple. Again the case of statutory rape in which it is completely consensual but one is underage, that a case of rape that can in some case be motivated by love! Also not all rapist get off dominating others rather again the rape can be for other reasons. Take entrapment when a women gets a man to impregnate her against his will, in those cases it may not be about domination at all but that the women does not want the man to leave her and wanted a child, as means of anchoring him to her or even because she wanted a child father by him and nothing more. And again some rapes are simply acts of lust in which domination provided no arousal. The need to dominate is often the means, but not always the reason for a rape.

The common tie with all rapists is that they seek dominance over their victims. Rape doesn't ask permission...it violates. It steals the dignity of someone. It can physically hurt, emotionally hurt...it is abuse.

Most rapes, not ALL rapes, again the case of statutory rape in with the victim gave permission completely and wholly. You might say the the victim was underage and could not consent but it is not as if the moment someone becomes 18 they become an adult mentally, some cases of statutory rape the "victim" was of mature enough mentally (but not legally) to make the decision to have sex.

I'm not judging you ...for I don't know you as a person. But, I humbly encourage you to change your view on this because it is only your opinion. It honestly isn't fact. Go into a rape survivor clinic with this type of "flexible" definition and doubtful anyone will agree with you.

It is not opinion it is fact. More so the kind of rapes that rape survivor clinics get are not ALL rapes and is a bias sampling. I would not go into a rape survivors clinic with a flexible definition no more then I would go into a breast cancer clinic with an open definition of all cancers. Cancer is a class of diseases, each different by type and even by patient, breast cancer being a specific type (with sub-types no less) with specific problems for the patients. Rape survivors at a rape clinic are usually a specific type of rape with specific causes and affects, ideologs like you apply this sample as being the whole, as if all cancers are the same, and derived their ideology on this such that any acceptance of variation threatens your ideology and thus can't be accepted.
 
Further, and this might be the most important point here that I want to make...

For the people we are speaking about in the military accused of raping men and women, they would undoubtedly be raping if they were not in the military. Rape is not something a well adjusted healthy minded person does, no matter what conditions they find themselves in.
Of the priests rightfully accused of molesting kids, those priests would be molesters even if they weren't priests. Same for these military men who have raped women. Rape is an act committed by a sick person. Said person needs to be in prison. Not women need to leave the military. Why? To lessen the rapes?

The solution comes in the form of kicking rapists out of the military. And ENFORCING a zero tolerance policy for harassment and sexual abuse or coercion of anyone.

These men didn't start raping because they are stationed with females. They were depraved before joining the military. Joining the military and being around women all the time doesn't turn someone into a rapist, is my point.


So, this will never be about women joining the military at all. :/


This is why when I read about how well, if women weren't in the military, then this wouldn't be happening...I just roll my eyes and think they're missing the whole point and have no clue what rape is about.

Well said, wegs! Perfect!
 
Take entrapment when a women gets a man to impregnate her against his will, in those cases it may not be about domination at all but that the women does not want the man to leave her and wanted a child, as means of anchoring him to her or even because she wanted a child father by him and nothing more.

That's not rape.

And again some rapes are simply acts of lust in which domination provided no arousal. The need to dominate is often the means, but not always the reason for a rape.

Acts of lust without violence aren't rape; the violence (or threat of it) is a necessary ingredient.
 
Electric Fetus;

We are not speaking of statutory rape, we are speaking specifically about rape, in terms of what has transpired in the military.
Going with that, your 'other' definition of rape is wrong.

You are calling me names now, so this is when I tune out.
I don't rail back, it's not me.

I even said I didn't judge you, but you come back calling me an ideologue...yet again. Judging me.
Not willing to even understand any of my points. Meanwhile, you are the wrong one with your beliefs about rape.

So...nice chatting...again, it will be interesting to see what happens.
 
In some cases yes, "forced" is not the reason for rape in those cases rather it is the means. If I want to have sex with someone and force my self on them the reason I raped them was because I wanted sex from them, domination and control was only means to that end.
Ask any professional in the field and they will assure you that rape is primarily about violence, not sex. It's the only weapon a man can carry with him absolutely everywhere without being identified as a potential attacker.

You're thinking like a normal, reasonably healthy and well-adjusted man. The only reason you would force yourself on a woman is that you find her attractive and (at least somewhere along the way) thought she was interested, and you're both plastered. But normal, reasonably healthy and well-adjusted men are a small minority of rapists. The vast majority of rapists have a couple of screws loose, often from some untreated psychological problems from their childhood. Quite often they were abused by their fathers, and not necessarily sexually.

Only in "date rape" do we find testosterone-crazed young men who are otherwise fairly sane and healthy believing the old crap about "no means yes," and with their abominably poor communication skills misreading clues, while both they and the equally young and inexperienced women have had too much to drink and are unable to express themselves clearly.

I can believe in the rehabilitation of a date-rapist, who at least has tried in his clumsy way to form a relationship and in his alcoholic stupor is sure that the lady will enjoy it. But the more typical sleazebag who picks on strangers and starts off with violence rather than foreplay? No. He's just wired wrong.

Castrating rapists doesn't work. They just start assaulting women with broomsticks and other objects. This alone is all the evidence we need to realize that it's primarily about violence. Men know that rape is the one kind of assault that many (probably most) women never completely recover from. That's what they want: permanent injury.
 
Ask any professional in the field and they will assure you that rape is primarily about violence, not sex. It's the only weapon a man can carry with him absolutely everywhere without being identified as a potential attacker.

You're thinking like a normal, reasonably healthy and well-adjusted man. The only reason you would force yourself on a woman is that you find her attractive and (at least somewhere along the way) thought she was interested, and you're both plastered. But normal, reasonably healthy and well-adjusted men are a small minority of rapists. The vast majority of rapists have a couple of screws loose, often from some untreated psychological problems from their childhood. Quite often they were abused by their fathers, and not necessarily sexually.

Only in "date rape" do we find testosterone-crazed young men who are otherwise fairly sane and healthy believing the old crap about "no means yes," and with their abominably poor communication skills misreading clues, while both they and the equally young and inexperienced women have had too much to drink and are unable to express themselves clearly.

I can believe in the rehabilitation of a date-rapist, who at least has tried in his clumsy way to form a relationship and in his alcoholic stupor is sure that the lady will enjoy it. But the more typical sleazebag who picks on strangers and starts off with violence rather than foreplay? No. He's just wired wrong.

Castrating rapists doesn't work. They just start assaulting women with broomsticks and other objects. This alone is all the evidence we need to realize that it's primarily about violence. Men know that rape is the one kind of assault that many (probably most) women never completely recover from. That's what they want: permanent injury.

I agree and I agree with post #52 by wegs

Men or rather boys , need to be independent in their thinking , and be able to voice what they think is wrong anomalously or at the time without any repercussions to themselves

I think the problem is group mentality , especially in the military , immature ego etc.

The military wants young people because they are easier to train , and easier to manipulate psychologically hence they don't question as much , or very little , as compared to more mature adult , hence the problem with rape

Power , strength and disrespect hence run rapid in a group , such as the military would provide

Lets hope that sooner rather than later that a military attitude can become and is the goal , of a more advanced thinking , such as in the movie Star Ship Troopers
 
That's not rape.

Some would disagree

Acts of lust without violence aren't rape; the violence (or threat of it) is a necessary ingredient.

Others would disagree as well, but since the definition of rape is flexible I won't argue.

Meanwhile, you are the wrong one with your beliefs about rape.

Yet your the one naming me wrong without evidence or even counter argument.


Fraggle Rocker,

You agree not all rapes are about dominance so I have nothing to argue with you about. But I do disagree with your presentation that rape is only an issue of men raping women.
 
Some would disagree

Some would say that consensual sex between a man and a woman was rape if the woman gets pregnant and the man didn't want her to? I suppose some might say that, but then again some claim that any sex between a man and a woman is a violation.
 
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