BioFuels vs. Hydrogen economy

Which is the fuel of the future

  • Hydogen

    Votes: 20 48.8%

  • Biofuels

    Votes: 21 51.2%
  • Total voters
    41
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From what I've read (not much I admit) the biomass for biofuels cost as much power - or more - to gather/grow/harvest as they return in energy.

I live in a rural area so everyone is happy about this concept but the math doesn't really make sense to me. Acquiring hydrogen seems much easier and far less messy than biofuels (by messy I mean the complex and varied retrieval processes needed to efficiently use biomass as an energy). I'm very interested in this area because it would mean a new revenue for my province but it just doesn't add up from what I can tell.
 
lol!

now you're getting it philocrazy, less is more. Seriously, I got more from that post than anything you've posted so far.
 
He was talking about using turbines not just at the bottom of the dam, but at regular intervals along the drop to maximize the energy gained by the water's potential energy. As the water keeps falling at terminal velocity, it loses its potential energy, but doesn't gain kinetic energy.

One dam, multiple generators. What's so damn difficult to understand?
 
The problem is as the water drops though each generator it slowed down. Let me give you an example: gas turbine do not extend much longer then they are, why? You think the more layers of blades and the more levels of individual turbines in a row would give you more energy. Well in fact no they don't, the longer the turbine the more it slows down the burning fuel and at a eventual point the blades are spinning up the air rather then slowing it down, energy waste. Multiple levels to turbines have the same problems each one slows down the air (or water in a dams case) so the next one has less pressure to deal with, eventually back pressures builds up and the turbines stops spinning.
 
WellCookedFetus

U forgot a thing called gravity. In gas turbine gravity is not at work, but in water turbine gravity is at work all the way until the river reaches the sea.
 
then your dam would have the bee very huge to support such a drop, no matter what back pressure will build up if you have to many stages.
 
WellCookedFetus said:
then your dam would have the bee very huge to support such a drop, no matter what back pressure will build up if you have to many stages.
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There is no requirenment of any drops as the turbines are going 2b inside the pipes which will be running down parallel to the river as it leaves the dam towards the sea.
 
Sure it is it has to withstand great pressure and be 10 of meters wide, and then it has to be done cheaper then building a dam.
 
buffys said:
From what I've read (not much I admit) the biomass for biofuels cost as much power - or more - to gather/grow/harvest as they return in energy.

I live in a rural area so everyone is happy about this concept but the math doesn't really make sense to me. Acquiring hydrogen seems much easier and far less messy than biofuels (by messy I mean the complex and varied retrieval processes needed to efficiently use biomass as an energy). I'm very interested in this area because it would mean a new revenue for my province but it just doesn't add up from what I can tell.
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one uses waste.

for example, put a biodiesel plant next to a corn processng plant. use the husks and stalks to make the fuel. saves the plant money on disposition of waste, and saves transport costs of the wastes to make fuel. byproduct is glycerin, a windfall but expensive commodity.

ever wonder where all the used cooking oil goes from all those fast food french fries restaurants. there're companies that collect it, and it gets burned, but, put a biodiesel plant next to the collection place, and make the fuel from waste oil.
 
thats the thing though, it's not the waste they're talking about using. In my area for example where wheat is the primary crop, it's not the stalks and other leftovers they plan to use for biofuels but the whole product because the majority of the energy is in the seed not the waste (that's why we eat that and not the rest). So, we will be growing entire fields of wheat for use in biofuels only. All the energy and effort that goes into the seeding, growing, cultivation and gathering of a crop negates much of the return as fuel.

It's a way farmers might get a bit more money for there crop (an under paid sector if ever there was one) but not really great either ecologically or on a large scale because every field for fuel use is one less for human consumption.

I love the idea of using organic waste as an energy source but things like the husks of corn are extremely low in energy value. There are a few ideas like using energy from decomposition in city dumps but this is also incredibly hard to do efficiently. If you know of links to truly viable biofuel set-ups (that can be done on a large scale) please link them because I can't find any.

If you're going to devote a field to energy production it might as well be wind or solar because once the initial power and financial investment is made you just leave it and it produces, biofuels require continuous power input to work and that contradicts the whole point.
 
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buffys said:
thats the thing though, it's not the waste they're talking about using. In my area for example where wheat is the primary crop, it's not the stalks and other leftovers they plan to use for biofuels but the whole product because the majority of the energy is in the seed not the waste (that's why we eat that and not the rest). So, we will be growing entire fields of wheat for use in biofuels only. All the energy and effort that goes into the seeding, growing, cultivation and gathering of a crop negates much of the return as fuel.
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yes, i agree with you then. sounds like a farm subsidy when you put it that way.

the company i'm invested in makes biodiesel and they're interested in building lots of little plants (diffuse manufacturing) near where waste is generated and can be used with a minimum of transportation costs.

buffys said:
I love the idea of using organic waste as an energy source but things like the husks of corn are extremely low in energy value. There are a few ideas like using energy from decomposition in city dumps but this is also incredibly hard to do efficiently. If you know of links to truly viable biofuel set-ups (that can be done on a large scale) please link them because I can't find any.
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well, how is 'energy value' being defined. i think for most biofuels, it's sugar (carbs), i.e. for making ethanols. but what biodiesel wants is oil. i don't know what the oil distribution in plants is. bottom line is, even if the energy level is low, it's waste and it's either free, or sometimes you get paid to remove it, then you can do what you want with it. i can tell you that the energy cost making biodiesel is less by many times of what's produced.

There are some small farms that are now running all their diesel equipment on biodiesel that they make themselves from their own plant waste.
 
paulsamuel said:
the company i'm invested in makes biodiesel and they're interested in building lots of little plants (diffuse manufacturing) near where waste is generated and can be used with a minimum of transportation costs.
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now that makes sense, do you have a link? It reminds me of how some cars use wasted heat from the breaking process as an additional power source (it's not a huge input but it's wasted anyway so why not use it?).
 
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buffys said:
now that makes sense, do you have a link? It reminds me of how some cars use wasted heat from the breaking process as an additional power source (it's not a huge input but it's wasted anyway so why not use it?).
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i'm kind of embarassed to give you the link cause the company has done so poorly, and i've lost a lot, but i'm convinced it's a good idea. the company is southern states power company; http://www.sspowerco.net/

you might do better with your own biodiesel google search

i've heard of that energy storage from breaking, and I'd heard that Ford was interested and had made some prototypes, i've been following the company but it hasn't done that well, it's Shep Technologies (STLOF). good idea, that.
 
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