Autism - Is it all in your head ?

Killjoy

Killjoy

Propelling The Farce!!
Valued Senior Member
Well... ...your brain, anyway... ...which apparently some now think evolved that way.
It jives with what I've said for years now about the human mind being an inherently defective system. Then again, I'm an old so and so who does like to hear myself piss and moan.
:tongue: :tongue::tongue:


Human evolution may explain high autism rates


Scientists have uncovered new evidence suggesting that autism may have it roots in how the human brain has evolved.

"Our results suggest that some of the same genetic changes that make the human brain unique also made humans more neurodiverse," said the study's lead author, Alexander L. Starr in a statement.
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By analyzing brain samples across different species, researchers found that the most common type of outer-layer neurons—known as L2/3 IT neurons—underwent especially fast evolution in humans compared to other apes.

Strikingly, this rapid shift coincided with major alterations in genes linked to autism—likely shaped by natural selection factors unique to the human species.
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This looks on the face of it like a bit of a No Shit Sherlock. Since autism manifests itself in abnormal features of the higher brain functioning that is in any case specific to human beings, how could it not be linked to the development of the specifically human brain?

What may be more interesting is the mechanisms, apparently liked to the slower development of the human brain in early childhood compared to chimpanzees. However since the MSN article links to the wrong paper (something irrelevant about sex chromosomes) I can't follow it up by reading the actual paper.
 
Killjoy said:
I believe this is it:

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/42/9/msaf189/8245036
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Ah yes, that's it, thanks. It's pretty technical and not my speciality so we may need help from Pinball1970 or someone else with a bio background. However what I think I understand from a quick read it is that there are structures involving a particular cell type in the brain that developed rapidly as Man evolved and that for some as yet unknown reason, this was accompanied by a weakening of the regulation of genes that are associated with autism.

So it seems that tolerating a greater incidence of autism was a price that humanity found to be worth paying during its evolution, presumably due to other benefits in brain development that also came from weakening the control on these genes. It is not suggested that autistic tendencies themselves conferred an evolutionary advantage.

They speculate that maybe the human brain benefits from slower maturing after birth than in chimpanzees, and this provides space for acquiring language. Seemingly this slowing down is associated with these same genes.

I had not realised that schizophrenia is associated with the same gene set that is implicated in autism and that both conditions can affect competence in speech (though I did know, actually from some of the people we've had posting on this forum, that "word salad" is a symptom of schizophrenia). There is also a tantalising genetic link to sex, in that autism is more prevalent in males than females. That I didn't know either.
 
Autistic girls and women may have been misdiagnosed and under-represented in the past, creating the illusion of a lopsided "male in quantity" condition. The rise in general autism rates since the 1990s does hint that detection protocol was insufficient and sloppy decades prior to that, which in turn could mitigate any concern about this being an area of the social sciences where political motivated reasoning and interests affect research set-up and results. (I.e., probably not applicable in this instance.)
  • Because autism presents differently in women than in men, some women seek a diagnosis later in life.
    https://www.adult-autism.health.harvard.edu/resources/how-is-autism-different-in-females

    EXCERPTS: The evolving understanding of gender differences in autism is dismantling the notion that autism is more or less a 'male condition'.

    [...] Autistic women are also more likely to develop compensatory strategies to mask their challenges. For example, women often have stronger social imitation skills and the ability to mimic social behavior compared to men.

    [...] The majority of autism research in recent decades has focused on cisgender individuals, or those who have a gender identity that matches their sex assigned at birth. The most current research reveals that gender diversity is more common in autistic people than in their neurotypical peers. Consequently, there is a slow but distinct shift toward including gender diversity in autism research, which will provide a more accurate representation of all autistic individuals. The current knowledge of the female subtype of ASD is based on research of cisgender women.

    Why Autism in Women Is Misunderstood and Underdiagnosed
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...02/autism-in-women-an-under-diagnosed-reality

    EXCERPT: Another finding of the study is the difficulty autistic women face in obtaining a diagnosis. Many are first misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression, or personality disorders, as healthcare providers often fail to recognize autism’s presentation in women. Historically, diagnostic tools have been developed based on studies of autistic men and boys, meaning many women do not fit the traditional mold of what autism is “supposed” to look like. As a result, countless autistic women spend years—sometimes decades—searching for answers.
 
exchemist said:
Ah yes, that's it, thanks. It's pretty technical and not my speciality so we may need help from Pinball1970 or someone else with a bio background. However what I think I understand from a quick read it is that there are structures involving a particular cell type in the brain that developed rapidly as Man evolved and that for some as yet unknown reason, this was accompanied by a weakening of the regulation of genes that are associated with autism.

So it seems that tolerating a greater incidence of autism was a price that humanity found to be worth paying during its evolution, presumably due to other benefits in brain development that also came from weakening the control on these genes. It is not suggested that autistic tendencies themselves conferred an evolutionary advantage.

They speculate that maybe the human brain benefits from slower maturing after birth than in chimpanzees, and this provides space for acquiring language. Seemingly this slowing down is associated with these same genes.

I had not realised that schizophrenia is associated with the same gene set that is implicated in autism and that both conditions can affect competence in speech (though I did know, actually from some of the people we've had posting on this forum, that "word salad" is a symptom of schizophrenia). There is also a tantalising genetic link to sex, in that autism is more prevalent in males than females. That I didn't know either.
Click to expand...
Very interesting but not my area sadly, what I learnt about the brain in the 80s pretty much disappeared after my finals! (See also anatomy, biochemistry and fungal taxonomy)

In terms of Evolution and development though the paper makes sense. I know a little about that and your summary captures that.

This part below is more for non biology/science guys, so I am being very general.

First, why on earth would such a debilitating condition persist in the human population?
Where did these things come from?
Evolution is about trade off and net gain, the bird of paradise has ridiculous plumage that is physiologically expensive to grow and maintain energy wise and has a negative impact w.r.t. a quick escape from predators, yet we have it today. Attracting the mate outweighs the down side as he has the best chance of passing on his genes.

The upside of fast evolution of our brain or rather the genes that build brains, left us susceptable to these conditions but I would need to know exactly how that all ties in.
Meaning genes involved, cell types, tissue, area of the brain and associated pathologies some of which were mentioned in the paper (which I need to read slowly and check some of the refs)

Being smart is an advantage, if you can out smart your prey and predators, remember where the ripe fruit is and the best shelter is can be a matter of life and death.

Being smart has a cost, large brain for a start off, large brain means large brain case which is about twice as large as a chimp.
Women died in child birth till modern medicine kicked in about 100 years ago.
There is savantism, rare and autism is about 1/100 to be on the scale.
My ex dealt with some and she always said that condition was the most disturbing.
She had kids that were immobile and could only say "ug!" Downs and profoundly disabled yet she said the autistic kids were the hardest. Why? Because their parents who invested huge amounts of time with their kid got practically zero emotions back.
No contact, sometimes no eye contact (scopophobia) no love, no emotions. Nothing they could relate to.
 
Pinball1970 said:
Very interesting but not my area sadly, what I learnt about the brain in the 80s pretty much disappeared after my finals! (See also anatomy, biochemistry and fungal taxonomy)

In terms of Evolution and development though the paper makes sense. I know a little about that and your summary captures that.

This part below is more for non biology/science guys, so I am being very general.

First, why on earth would such a debilitating condition persist in the human population?
Where did these things come from?
Evolution is about trade off and net gain, the bird of paradise has ridiculous plumage that is physiologically expensive to grow and maintain energy wise and has a negative impact w.r.t. a quick escape from predators, yet we have it today. Attracting the mate outweighs the down side as he has the best chance of passing on his genes.

The upside of fast evolution of our brain or rather the genes that build brains, left us susceptable to these conditions but I would need to know exactly how that all ties in.
Meaning genes involved, cell types, tissue, area of the brain and associated pathologies some of which were mentioned in the paper (which I need to read slowly and check some of the refs)

Being smart is an advantage, if you can out smart your prey and predators, remember where the ripe fruit is and the best shelter is can be a matter of life and death.

Being smart has a cost, large brain for a start off, large brain means large brain case which is about twice as large as a chimp.
Women died in child birth till modern medicine kicked in about 100 years ago.
There is savantism, rare and autism is about 1/100 to be on the scale.
My ex dealt with some and she always said that condition was the most disturbing.
She had kids that were immobile and could only say "ug!" Downs and profoundly disabled yet she said the autistic kids were the hardest. Why? Because their parents who invested huge amounts of time with their kid got practically zero emotions back.
No contact, sometimes no eye contact (scopophobia) no love, no emotions. Nothing they could relate to.
Click to expand...
I was interested in the suggestion that it might be linked to a (paradoxical) need for slow post-natal brain development to learn language - which is one of the things that can go wrong in autism.
 
Autism does seem like a bit like a cognitive version of sickle cell (which is heterozygous adaptive where malaria reigns). IOW adaptive at the group level when not too extreme. Hunter gatherers likely benefited from an occasional tribe member who could focus intently on pattern recognition (say following a faint game trail, or finding a valuable botanical) even if their social skills were atypical. Or concentrate for days without interruption on designing a better arrow. Good arrows could even win a HG eccentric a chance at reproduction.

This doesn't mean that the weakening of regulatory genes theory is not also in play. Autism could be both a price paid in gaining wider neurological advantages, and also a cognitive style which sometimes paid its own way in tribal survival.
 
Edit window closed - above should read "adaptive when not too extreme." Obv sickle cell is operating at the organism level. Geez, do I ever proofread my shit?
 
C C said:
Autistic girls and women may have been misdiagnosed and under-represented in the past, creating the illusion of a lopsided "male in quantity" condition. The rise in general autism rates since the 1990s does hint that detection protocol was insufficient and sloppy decades prior to that, which in turn could mitigate any concern about this being an area of the social sciences where political motivated reasoning and interests affect research set-up and results. (I.e., probably not applicable in this instance.)
  • Because autism presents differently in women than in men, some women seek a diagnosis later in life.
    https://www.adult-autism.health.harvard.edu/resources/how-is-autism-different-in-females

    EXCERPTS: The evolving understanding of gender differences in autism is dismantling the notion that autism is more or less a 'male condition'.

    [...] Autistic women are also more likely to develop compensatory strategies to mask their challenges. For example, women often have stronger social imitation skills and the ability to mimic social behavior compared to men.

    [...] The majority of autism research in recent decades has focused on cisgender individuals, or those who have a gender identity that matches their sex assigned at birth. The most current research reveals that gender diversity is more common in autistic people than in their neurotypical peers. Consequently, there is a slow but distinct shift toward including gender diversity in autism research, which will provide a more accurate representation of all autistic individuals. The current knowledge of the female subtype of ASD is based on research of cisgender women.

    Why Autism in Women Is Misunderstood and Underdiagnosed
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...02/autism-in-women-an-under-diagnosed-reality

    EXCERPT: Another finding of the study is the difficulty autistic women face in obtaining a diagnosis. Many are first misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression, or personality disorders, as healthcare providers often fail to recognize autism’s presentation in women. Historically, diagnostic tools have been developed based on studies of autistic men and boys, meaning many women do not fit the traditional mold of what autism is “supposed” to look like. As a result, countless autistic women spend years—sometimes decades—searching for answers.
Click to expand...
My daughter is one of those women who wasn't diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum until later. She had been struggling with social anxiety and was seeking help for it through therapy, until finally someone considered testing her for autism.
 
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Killjoy said:
Well... ...your brain, anyway... ...which apparently some now think evolved that way.
It jives with what I've said for years now about the human mind being an inherently defective system. Then again, I'm an old so and so who does like to hear myself piss and moan.
:tongue: :tongue::tongue:


Human evolution may explain high autism rates
Click to expand...
Most autistic people don't work, and many usually end up in care homes.

So is this evolution at it's worst? Or should the world change so autistic people don't need care homes... not sure if it's possible. It is more of a mental illness than anything, I've met loads of autistic patients in mental health wards over the years of inspecting them.

I'm talking about the UK.
 
davewhite04 said:
Most autistic people don't work, and many usually end up in care homes.

So is this evolution at it's worst? Or should the world change so autistic people don't need care homes... not sure if it's possible. It is more of a mental illness than anything, I've met loads of autistic patients in mental health wards over the years of inspecting them.

I'm talking about the UK.
Click to expand...
Not sure that’s right. My son had both a schoolfriend and another at university who were on the spectrum. The autistic spectrum spans a very wide range and quite a lot lead a pretty normal life, apparently.
 
exchemist said:
Not sure that’s right. My son had both a schoolfriend and another at university who were on the spectrum. The autistic spectrum spans a very wide range and quite a lot lead a pretty normal life, apparently.
Click to expand...

It's true. I have two friends one can work the other can't, not because of autism mind.

EDIT: Also I have known an autistic friend I haven't seen for years, known him since 15. He is in a care home, or whatever sort of accommodation they use. His special ability was known every single car model on the road. His dad used to buy him car magazine's and that made him happy.
 
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This thread could easily have schizophrenia, bipolar, ptsd.... in it.

Are these defects?

If that is too off topic, I'll create a new thread for it later.
 
RFK Jr. is giving me a big headache, anyone got a couple Tylenol?
 
UK government is feeling the need to remind people that the US advice is wrong:
www.gov.uk

Paracetamol and pregnancy - reminder that taking paracetamol during pregnancy remains safe

Patients should be reminded and reassured that there is no evidence that taking paracetamol during pregnancy causes autism in children. Paracetamol is recommended as the first-choice pain reliever for pregnant women, used at the lowest dose and for the shortest duration. It also acts as an...
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
To me autism is not any evolutionary outcome but a degenerative tendency that is growing and growing.

By experience as a parent of a child who was found with a kind of "tale" in a certain chromosome when in his mother's belly. The doctor told us if we choose abortion.

Same day, we went to a shopping center, and I saw a family with several children, between them, two of the children were helping their brother to walk with them and who appeared to have the Down Syndrome. I say to myself, "if they can do it, then I also can do it".

We have the child and later more. This child was never treated different than the others. He grew up without knowledge of his condition. Of course, he was mostly apart from the rest, and had all the symptoms like late talking, hard to understand instructions because his mind was always distracted in something else.

He had to go to special education. At 17, to my surprise, he asked me to go to MVA and after passing writing and practice tests he pulled his driver license! He loved driving since early years. I used to have an old truck with stick, and he learned to drive it even better than I did. He has ended obtaining the Class A license and has a great job.

I don't feel offended if someone tells me that my son is "abnormal", because he is, even with his success in life, he still is reaching the average level of a person of his age, slowly but surely. I also accept that his condition is not an evolutionary step but on the contrary, it is a degenerative condition. I know how to distinguish between the sweet fallacies of a false theory in comparison to the reality nature offers us if we like it or not.

I'm very happy of having this son, I love him, and he is a good man, a hardworking man.

I'm not against parents who choose for abortion, however for me such is rejecting nature and a try of living a perfect life in an imperfect world. Just my opinion.

Hope for parents who have been and are in my situation; to learn to love their child the way nature brings them to us. I knew a family where the couple had a child who can't even walk or talk, but you should see his face full of happiness all the time his mother approaches him with lovely voice and giving him kisses, hugging him with so much care. I almost cried when I saw such happiness in the middle of the sad condition of her son.
 
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