How about the Bible Jesus... do you see him as bein truly selfless.???
Atheists and the soul
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How about the Bible Jesus... do you see him as bein truly selfless.???
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
I disagree.
Unless your definition of altruism is so narrow as to preclude simple things like offering a thirsty person a drink of water.
Does one gain any advantage by holding a door for a stranger?
Damned near every single time I have screwed up royally, total strangers have offered me their help.
You may just be underestimating the communal spirit and/or good will of the entire species.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
dupe
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DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
That is not my idea of selfless. That is my idea of simply being a good citizen. I am constantly (but often subtlely) checking out if people need help (much to my wife's consternation). I don't consider myself selfless.
For me, selflessness goes beyond looking out for others, to sacrificing for others.
Offering a thirsty man a drink, when I have plenty of water for myself, is simply kind.
Offering a thirsty man a drink, when I only have enough for myself - that is selfless.
He is simply at the far end of the bell curve.
Point of order:
For those using it, I'd like to have someone define this term "truly selfless". I don;t understand it. Specifically, what does "truly selfless" mean that "selfless" does not?
[Mayb im a Crystal Child.???]
An employee was alowed to drive a company vehicle to an from work... but on a non work day... wit-out permission they drove the car... an totaled it.!!!
They lost ther privilage to drive anuther company vehicle but they was not fired... hollared at or even lectured;;; is that bein altruistic.???
Woud the way you feel be any diferent whether you shared the water... or not shared the water.???
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
of course
I was programmed by my mother to be helpful, kind, polite, responsible, forgiving, etc...
Deviation from programming is invariably unpleasant.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Of course.
Not sure if you're talking tongue-in-cheek.
Do you take any credit yourself for knowing good from bad? Or does all the credit go to your mom?
My post was direcred to Sculptor based on his post (link below) so i await his response befor replyin to you:::
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...and-the-soul&p=3226593&viewfull=1#post3226593
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
Yes I take credit and responsibility for all of my actions, and the mindset that led to them.
The trick is in understanding your own programming.
..
anecdote:
I was having a bit of a rough go of it while in the army. I had a difficult time when forced to tolerate stupidity and ritual.
(When the Tao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is morality. When morality is lost, there is ritual.)
One fine day, I was wandering o'er the commons when a major called out to me. Not wishing to engage in conversation, I ignored him.
Shortly thereafter, he was standing in front of me demanding that I salute him(ritual).
I began to do that, then paused...for a moment of enlightenment... I then began to follow the programming while voicing the actions aloud.
cub scouts salute with 2 fingers(and did so)
boy scouts salute with 3 fingers(etc)
Explorers with 4
and the army with all five
Loudly: "OH MY GOD, I'VE BEEN PROGRAMMED"!
Dumbfounded, the poor fool spun on his heel and walked away.
I watched him depart for a moment while storing the memory, then went back to my own thoughts.
When you know your own programming and then choose to follow it or deviate...that is taking personal responsibility.
And I would have it no other way.
Woud you'r choice of whether to share the water or not... depend on which action resulted in the bigger personal payoff.???
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I got that.
Except that it seems to be a non sequitur from his post. You're simply putting forth a scenario and asking if it demonstrates altruism. There seems to be no tie-in to Sculptor's post. Which is fine. And which is why I had no problem taking your post at face-value.
So, what does someone crashing a car and not getting punished have to do with altruism?
I'm guessing sculptor is likely to ask a very similar question, I'm just beating him to it.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
If I were acting selflessly, the personal payoff would not be relevant.
If I were a normal, middle-of-the-road person, I would weigh the odds. I might still decide to offer him the water, but I'd check my needs first.
And again. Sharing water is not selfless. Offering water when I only have enough for one is selfless.
How did we get on this topic??
This thread is about the atheistic conviction of the non-existence of a soul.
May I suggest you start your own thread.
Sculptor used the word altruism... an suggests that people have offered ther help when he has screwed up royally;;; im puttin forth a similar scenario an i await his reply insted of just guessin what it might be.!!!
I cant emagine an example of "acting selflessly"... well... unless some sort of "magic" is involved.!!!
Of course... an do you have an example of an abnormal person who woud not weigh the odds.???
No need... it was a bit of a quibble but you answrd
So whare are we at concernin the specific thred topic.???
O... one thang you didnt answr yet is what you have learned about me from my replys to you'r hypothetical thred topic.!!!
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...and-the-soul&p=3226535&viewfull=1#post3226535
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sculptor
Valued Senior Member
If this was what you were waiting for a reply to:
There ain't enough information to determine altruism.
..............
think about this:
The best altruism is mutually profitable.
..............
Selflessness is an impossibility for any sentient being. All is experienced through the self.
Could you say that a suicide bomber is being selfless?
How about someone diving on a grenade?
which ties into
from post #94
interesting
Does belief require self reflected knowledge? Or the opposite(ignorance)?
Yes much was left out.!!!
The person was a good worker (hard to come by) so we let the issue slide... plus we did have empathy for them.!!!
Thats as good as its gonna get... an its grate for society.!!!
I agree... an Dave dont want to continue discussin this side issue anymore... so back to the specific thred topic.!!!
DaveC426913 said:
"In a nutshell, it says he will give you riches beyond your wildest dreams of avarice."
avarice: extreme greed for wealth or material gain.
DaveC426913 said:
You’re an atheist. You know that you don’t have soul. You’d be taking advantage of your friend’s stupidity for personal gain.
DaveC426913 said:
Yes.
Good day to you, Dave.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
You evaded the question.
Is the contract deeming me the benefactor of any coinage in your pocket valid? The contract does not specify that there need be any coinage in your pocket, let alone transferred.
Likewise, contracts are not voided simply by "taking advantage" of someone as you call it. He has made this offer, well aware of your views.
I might add, that just because you are sure there is no soul, that does not mean, bindingly, that there isn't. His side of the contract doesn't have to grant that your opinion on the matter is a valid one.
And that's the crux. Just because you are sure there is no soul does not mean there is no soul. No atheist can assert that. So, while you claim he is 'stupid', you cannot, for the purposes of a contract, claim 'you have more knowledge, and therefore are unable to sign the contract because it is not valid'.
Right. You voted no. You would be an N(a). (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...and-the-soul&p=3226358&viewfull=1#post3226358).
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