Atheists and the soul

[DaveC426913]

Yes it does.
We have an entire (and humongously lengthy) thread on that very subject.

You could have written a book on it. That does not grant it to be so.

It certainly cannot be stated categorically here without qualifiers on how god is defined (and I'll bet your lengthy thread is chock full of acknowledgements that the entity needs to be well-defined before the assertion holds a drop of water).

And I have not defined him.

That is another discussion. It is also moot. Your friend holds the paper out to you. You can have any internal discussion about free will you wish. You can take it and sign it, or not. The only thing I'm asking is which.

 

[Dywyddyr]

And I have not defined him

Regardless of whether or not YOU defined him/ her/ it I specifically noted "(with the attributes commonly claimed)" in my post.

That is another discussion. It is also moot. Your friend holds the paper out to you. You can take it and sign it, or not. The only thing I'm asking is which.

Already answered.

 

[DaveC426913]

Regardless of whether or not YOU defined him/ her/ it I specifically noted "(with the attributes commonly claimed)" in my post.

That is no problem. The contract signee may rationalize their decision any way they want.

And I believe you were the first to sign, so you were the first to <strikethrough>put your money where your mouth is</strikethrough> have the courage of your convictions.

 

[Dywyddyr]

so you were the first to put your money where your mouth is.

Still waiting for the cash though...
(And hurry, I've got a fiver left to last me a fortnight).

 

[DaveC426913]

Still waiting for the cash though...
(And hurry, I've got a fiver left to last me a fortnight).

Good point.

Here's a followup, just for you.
The next week you win the Powerball Lottery of $500 million. You're rich and it's all perfectly non-supernatural. It is certainly an incredible coincidence.

Your friend comes by a week later and congratulates you. (You have the obligatory discussion about what 'rich beyond your wildest dreams of avarice' means to you, for which he is apologetic, but stands by the fulfillment of the letter of the contract.)

As he leaves, he says "Enjoy it. I'll be back to see you in ..." (he checks his pocketbook and shrugs) "... I'll see you."

You will die one day. Eventually.

Do you forget about your friend and the worthless piece of paper, and sleep like a baby every night?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Good point.
Here's a followup, just for you.
The next week you win the Powerball Lottery of $500 million. You're rich and it's all perfectly non-supernatural. It is certainly an incredible coincidence.

Um, apart from the fact that that would be supernatural...
A) I live in the UK, so winning a (presumably) American lottery would be somewhat more than a coincidence, and
B) I don't - ever - do lotteries anyway, which makes it even less coincidental.

You will die one day. Eventually.
Do you forget about your friend and the worthless piece of paper, and sleep like a baby every night?

If I had $500M (or, even better, £500M) I would sleep at least as well as I do now: probably better.
At least I wouldn't be expecting those bright red letters in the post next morning.

 

[DaveC426913]

Partial results:

Out of twelve people who have participated in this thread, only three have signed the contract. Two have admitted they would not sign

That leaves seven people waffling.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

You don't have a soul (because the soul is an imaginary concept from a book of fiction), so to sign a contract promising to give it to him is fraudulent. He's not the Devil (because the Devil is an imaginary creature from a book of fiction), so any promises he makes based on having the powers attributed to the Devil are also fraudulent.

This contract is unenforceable in the USA and most Western countries.

As for "absence of evidence not comprising evidence of absence," the principle you're looking for is the Rule of Laplace:

Extraordinary assertions must be supported by extraordinary evidence before we are obliged to treat them with respect.​

So if someone claims to be a real-life version of a character in a Bronze Age fairytale, just give him the finger and keep walking.

 

[DaveC426913]

You don't have a soul (because the soul is an imaginary concept from a book of fiction), so to sign a contract promising to give it to him is fraudulent.

Frankly, you cannot state that you have no soul, you can only state that you are convinced you don't. You cannot prove a negative.

Both parties are aware and agree to the one-sided deal. There is no intent to deceive. He is not obliged to explain to you his rationale.

He's not the Devil (because the Devil is an imaginary creature from a book of fiction), so any promises he makes based on having the powers attributed to the Devil are also fraudulent.

He has claimed no such thing. All he's done is engage you in a discussion about eternal souls and then produced a piece of paper that is, a symbol of your conviction.

This contract is unenforceable in the USA and most Western countries.

He completely agrees. It is a worthless piece of paper. But after an entire evening where you argued these very things "there is no soul, there is no God; there is no Devil", he is simply asking you to put your money where your mouth is, to symbolically stand by your convictions as an atheist. By donating a drop of blood.

As for "absence of evidence not comprising evidence of absence," the principle you're looking for is the Rule of Laplace:

Extraordinary assertions must be supported by extraordinary evidence before we are obliged to treat them with respect.​

.

No. This is completely missing the point. There is nothing supernatural about him, his contract or his desire for your signature.

So if someone claims to be a real-life version of...

He has claimed nothing about who he is.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I gotta agree with DaveLOTSOFNUMBERS here.
It's not about legality, or even about whether the guy is supernatural or not or if your soul exists or not.
It's about how sure are you that it's all hokum?

 

[DaveC426913]

I gotta agree with DaveLOTSOFNUMBERS here.
It's not about legality, or even about whether the guy is supernatural or not or if your soul exists or not.
It's about how sure are you that it*'s all hokum?

*existence of an eternal soul

Thank you, yes.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

So, both of you voted yes in the poll?

Yes i voted yes.!!!

 

[spidergoat]

You don't have a soul (because the soul is an imaginary concept from a book of fiction), so to sign a contract promising to give it to him is fraudulent. He's not the Devil (because the Devil is an imaginary creature from a book of fiction), so any promises he makes based on having the powers attributed to the Devil are also fraudulent.

This contract is unenforceable in the USA and most Western countries.

As for "absence of evidence not comprising evidence of absence," the principle you're looking for is the Rule of Laplace:

Extraordinary assertions must be supported by extraordinary evidence before we are obliged to treat them with respect.​

So if someone claims to be a real-life version of a character in a Bronze Age fairytale, just give him the finger and keep walking.

But I don't know for sure there isn't a Devil, I just don't believe there is one. If this guy makes me rich beyond my wildest dreams, then I might consider that evidence in His favor.

 

[Gremmie]

Definitely sign...

Nothing to lose.

 

[Trooper]

I posit a scenario:

You spend an evening with your friends with good wine and good food, talking about all sorts of philosophical things. You get into an animated discussion with them about the notion of God and souls and you find yourself vehemently and confidently defending your assertions against an onslaught of pro-god arguments (whether they are sincere or merely Devil's Advocate arguments is a matter of how well you know your friends).

As the night wears on, eventually discussion peters out. Your friends all drift off home or to sleep, leaving you with just one close friend. He re-opens the discussion, oddly mischievously, like he's a whole different person than you knew. With a twinkle in his eye, he asks how strong your beliefs really are and, out of his smoking jacket, pulls a scroll and puts it in front of you to read. In a nutshell, it says he will give you riches beyond your wildest dreams of avarice if you simply sign on the dotted line in your own blood. The catch of course, is that the Devil will "take your eternal soul" when you die.

Now, nothing supernatural has actually occurred. I could very well pull that whole thing off as a lark at the upcoming Hallowe'en party. What I'm saying is: this is not a surreal or hypothetical scenario, it could certainly happen, just as I say.

You know he is full of it. He's not the Devil, since the Devil does not exist, and you have no soul, so there's no harm in signing the contract, since there's no such thing as a soul. The only thing he is really asking of you is to demonstrate how strongly you stand behind your belief that you have no such thing as a soul. He gives you a (sterile) sharp to prick your finger and a quill to write with.

Do you sign?

That’s weird. Something similar happened to me the other night. My friend called, said that she had a hard day, wanted to come out for a glass of wine. It was a nice night. So, we sat on the front porch. A good friend, wine, chocolate, what more could you ask for? We reminisced and laughed, but as the night drew on, she skillfully turned the conversation to spiritual things. She too, wanted to know how strong my convictions were. I thought I knew her but I didn’t know everything. She was… a…a…Christian. She talked about the supernatural, covenants, and immortality. It was pretty crazy.

She said that if I promised to worship and serve him eternally, he’d prepare a place for me, and grant me forever lasting life. I’d be…get this…immortal. She said he was the owner of many mansions, and had more riches than I could ever imagine, cities of pure gold and precious stones.

Oh, Really? :bugeye:

Yep, and you don’t have to sign anything. It’s an oral contract. All you have to do is repent, believe that he raised Jesus from the dead, give him complete control over your life, and accept his promise. There are a few more rules, but don’t worry, there are plenty of people to guide you. Oh, she said, I almost forgot, he’s very mysteries, and probably won’t reveal himself to you until you die.

There is one little catch, though. He wants you to renounce this world. If you love anything more than him, you are not worthy. It’s easy once you realize that the eternal is more important than anything temporal. You can’t serve two masters. You cannot be devoted to both God and the world at the same time. You see, he's gets a little jealous from time to time. If you don’t accept his invitation, you’ll wish that you were never born.

Well, are you ready to serve him and accept the gift of eternal life?

What I'm saying is: this is not a surreal or hypothetical scenario, it happens every goddamn day.

Oh well, the wine was good. :mufc:

 

[Aqueous Id]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QJcypTivZo

 

[Aqueous Id]

Partial results:

Out of twelve people who have participated in this thread, only three have signed the contract. Two have admitted they would not sign

That leaves seven people waffling.

Waffling is different than silence. I have no opinion of the hypothetical you raised, mainly because it's absurd. I posted what I said out of interest in the expressed reasons people give for believing in a soul, which is particularly absurd in the context of the modern era, in which we can learn at about the high school level that cells are tiny automatons; nothing special has been breathed into them, and they can be animated artificially.

The question seemed to be asking if atheists are willing to forego the possibility that they may be wrong, to the extent that they would be willing to reaffirm their atheism at the moment of the "nut cutting" (as it were). It's that sleight of hand that sort makes me feel like reaffirming my atheism gives some vague validation to religion. So I stand mute on the question, only to say it's all nonsense. God does not exist, and can not exist, nor can any demons . . . and the legends like this one that live on are really moronic.

I think my answer is just a thumb's down, the whole thing seems contrived. I feel there is no answer that fairly represents my point of view. I guess I mean it's not a yes or no question. I guess that makes me a hostile participant to some extent, but so be it. I simply can't stand the pervasive intrusion into intelligent discussion of the stupidest of all human ideas: that fictions we create are real, or at least might be real. And worse: that they are coming to get us. Utter crap!

 

[Gremmie]

That’s weird. Something similar happened to me the other night. My friend called, said that she had a hard day, wanted to come out for a glass of wine. It was a nice night. So, we sat on the front porch. A good friend, wine, chocolate, what more could you ask for? We reminisced and laughed, but as the night drew on, she skillfully turned the conversation to spiritual things. She too, wanted to know how strong my convictions were. I thought I knew her but I didn’t know everything. She was… a…a…Christian. She talked about the supernatural, covenants, and immortality. It was pretty crazy.

She said that if I promised to worship and serve him eternally, he’d prepare a place for me, and grant me forever lasting life. I’d be…get this…immortal. She said he was the owner of many mansions, and had more riches than I could ever imagine, cities of pure gold and precious stones.

Oh, Really? :bugeye:

Yep, and you don’t have to sign anything. It’s an oral contract. All you have to do is repent, believe that he raised Jesus from the dead, give him complete control over your life, and accept his promise. There are a few more rules, but don’t worry, there are plenty of people to guide you. Oh, she said, I almost forgot, he’s very mysteries, and probably won’t reveal himself to you until you die.

There is one little catch, though. He wants you to renounce this world. If you love anything more than him, you are not worthy. It’s easy once you realize that the eternal is more important than anything temporal. You can’t serve two masters. You cannot be devoted to both God and the world at the same time. You see, he's gets a little jealous from time to time. If you don’t accept his invitation, you’ll wish that you were never born.

Well, are you ready to serve him and accept the gift of eternal life?

What I'm saying is: this is not a surreal or hypothetical scenario, it happens every goddamn day.

Oh well, the wine was good. :mufc:

I'll see you in hell, Trooper...

Of course, I'll arrive there before you... But,being the gentleman that I am, I'll save ya a seat. LOL.

Bring some wine... Maybe some cheese.

 

[elte]

I'm thinking that I'd not sign since I consider traits of the devil to be untrustworthiness and lack of ethics (if the devil existed, or the friend was emulating the devil).

 

[Stuart]

"Do you sign?"

No.

There's no use signing my name to anything for such a reason. But, if he were to destroy it after I signed it (maybe throw it in a pit of fire he claimed was essentially Hell's mailbox), then I would if I really thought it was useful to me for that particular person to understand my disbelief. Hell, it wouldn't matter what it promised in return, let it just be a declaration of Damnation.