Are Words Inadequate?

[Musika]

Is it possible to capture more than an idea with words? It seems that we can only offer the essence of a subject in a lineer fashion with words; whereas human experience is more of a totality. As an example, I'm sitting in my living room. What I experience at this moment would take me hours to write into words?

What I'm getting at is that words have limitations.

There is an idea that language (of which words are a subset) affect the way we think. Thus if one is exposed to more diverse language (not merely putting a range of languages beneath one's belt, but diversity in terms of a diversity within the length and breadth of mapped out territory within a language), the more diverse one's impressions of existence are. As such, its not that language is a limitation that pales in comparison to our experiences, but rather that it is the catalayzing means of indirectly enriching our experiences.

 

[DaveC426913]

This seems to underestimate the capabilities involved in good writing, speaking, etc.
What language is potentially sufficient for, and what most people can do with it, are far from the same.

Stephen King, in his book "On Writing", described writing as "the closest thing we have to telepathy".

 

[Beer w/Straw]

 

[geordief]

Where language is insufficient to perform this function is a circumstance so rare as not to justify modifying language for. However, both psychologists and novelists keep trying to expand language to cover just such contingencies. In most cases, however, it's the experiencer who wants to share, far more than the hearer.

As others are intimating ,when language is bent out of shape the result is something quite extraordinary. True this is not to everyone's taste (I am a natural philistine for my sins) but to contemplate a society that was not largely (or at all) shaped by these methods of communication would be abhorrent and take us backwards .

As someone said "you're gonna miss me when I 'm gone" ,we are so used to its presence ,like the air we breathe that we feel we can manage without it.

 

[Jeeves]

J -- Where language is insufficient to perform this function is a circumstance so rare as not to justify modifying language for.

This seems to underestimate the capabilities involved in good writing, speaking, etc.

How? I contend that language, in most circumstances, is adequate to convey internal experience. Not in 3D-Surroundsound, but enough for the requirements of communication. Plus: "However, both psychologists and novelists keep trying to expand language to cover just such contingencies."
That's how languages grow and evolve and sometimes mutate: when there is a perceived need, there is a response.
And you can always add inflection, volume, gestures, facial expressions, illustration, stage lighting, costume and makeup.

 

[Bebelina]

Words allow you to make a record of experience. Not a faithful one but at least a signpost to allow you to orient your attention in its direction.

Since words come with inter community protocol as part of the package we can all imagine/assume we are at the same experience (again unfaithfully).

Was the word the first "virtual reality" ?

I would say it was the cave paintings. Or even our thoughts?

 

[geordief]

I would say it was the cave paintings. Or even our thoughts?

Well yes thoughts are clearly a prime form of virtual reality - practically their main function possibly. (a way to take an internal still photograph of the moving exterior world)

I doubt whether a thought could have any substance without the opportunity of communication.

I imagine there must be a whole area of study around the significance of cave paintings (I would not know much about them)

 

[Bebelina]

Well yes thoughts are clearly a prime form of virtual reality - practically their main function possibly. (a way to take an internal still photograph of the moving exterior world)

I doubt whether a thought could have any substance without the opportunity of communication.

I imagine there must be a whole area of study around the significance of cave paintings (I would not know much about them)

What do you mean by that?

 

[geordief]

What do you mean by that?

I mean that without social intercourse our mental faculties would dwindle and run down.

They have been created by social intercourse at the outset and without that environment our thoughts would have a character that would be intrinsically impoverished.

 

[DaveC426913]

I mean that without social intercourse our mental faculties would dwindle and run down.

Well, as you point out, art is an expression of thought. It is not essential to have a recipient. Many artists paint simply as a release of their own thoughts. Some never show their works to others.

 

[geordief]

Well, as you point out, art is an expression of thought. It is not essential to have a recipient. Many artists paint simply as a release of their own thoughts. Some never show their works to others.

But the thoughts have their roots in social interactions.

Art without having benefited from that fertilisation would be a mere curiosity.

Shakespeare's monkeys on a typewriter.

I will guess that the appreciation of beauty in nature is bound up with the physical attraction we fill as newborns to our close family.

 

[DaveC426913]

But the thoughts have their roots in social interactions.

Art without having benefited from that fertilisation would be a mere curiosity.

They may be closely linked, but I'm not sure they are one-and the-same.

I will guess that the appreciation of beauty in nature is bound up with the physical attraction we fill as newborns to our close family.

I don't know why that has to be the case.
Fresh air and bright sunshine after a rainy day are causes for happiness even to incommunicative Man. No reason why he might not immortalize such a memory in his art.

 

[Bebelina]

I mean that without social intercourse our mental faculties would dwindle and run down.

They have been created by social intercourse at the outset and without that environment our thoughts would have a character that would be intrinsically impoverished.

How would communication or 'social intercourse' be excluded and how would be the impoverishment be measured?

 

[geordief]

How would communication or 'social intercourse' be excluded and how would be the impoverishment be measured?

With great difficulty and unethically.
A test tube baby could be brought up in such an artificial and nightmarish environment.

Again , measuring the impoverishment would really be unimaginable.

As gradations go ,it might be interesting to study cases where humans have been brought up by animals...

 

[Bebelina]

With great difficulty and unethically.
A test tube baby could be brought up in such an artificial and nightmarish environment.

Again , measuring the impoverishment would really be unimaginable.

As gradations go ,it might be interesting to study cases where humans have been brought up by animals...

Even if adult humans would be isolated, they still have memories of communication and the language and can basically speak to themselves. There must be studies about that though, the effect on communication and socialization by isolation, and of children brought up by animals. But what would be the point of such a study as the one you suggested? Why would the assumed impoverishment be of importance to study? What value is put into the word impoverishment for example? And for all that, what is communication and socialization in this context? Can speaking to a wall be communication, drawing a face on the wall and speaking to it socialization? Does other humans need to be involved, or can matter, the body, our thoughs, nature, air, the environment also be a part of the communication and socialization?

 

[geordief]

Even if adult humans would be isolated, they still have memories of communication and the language and can basically speak to themselves. There must be studies about that though, the effect on communication and socialization by isolation, and of children brought up by animals. But what would be the point of such a study as the one you suggested? Why would the assumed impoverishment be of importance to study? What value is put into the word impoverishment for example?

I have only indicated that separating a new born from conception and raising it in an environment without human communication would address the issue . I have also said t would be unethical to do so .

S o this is purely a thought experiment with no real value except as a talking point.

Impoverishment is bound to be a partly subjective assessment** but the point of the study (with socially deprived children -not adults) would obviously be to highlight the benefits of socialization as well as to better understand to effects of social deprivation (perhaps not a very common occurrence but surely deserving of study)

I don't know ,. There have been cases of children having been brought up by animals. There must have been consequences and probably some attempt at a case study.

**although inter-human empathetic capabilities /deficiencies might well be capable of being measured

 

[Dinosaur]

Some person or persons once said

A picture is worth a thousand words

The above might have under estimated the value of a picture. A movie of video is worth a lot more than a static picture.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

What I'm getting at is that words have limitations.

lineer fashion with words

lineer

this moment would take me hours to write into words

... 3 D experiential learning ?

genericaly speaking, all things have limitations.
philisophical/psychological debate subject interjects here with "does imagination have limits?"
cross link to my thread about infinity & AI etc...

Is it possible to capture more than an idea with words?

is this your question ?

do words convey emotions ?
cross link Daves comments & thread (thread?) empathic/etc.. mirror-neurons...

is an idea a narative of language ?