Are scientists fundamentalists? Is scientism like a religion?

[Pinball1970]

Я заметила, что вы, британцы, дружные. Всегда защищаете друг друга. По крайней мере на этом сайте. Или это только ты такой, Пин?

I certainly have more in common because we have similar cultures, i try and give people a chance to be human who I don't know.
I can usually tell when things are going to go South.

 

[exchemist]

I don't know why I said that, it wasn't serious as the word scientism might not be a valid thing.

Scientism is a valid thing. My post 35 describes what is. But it can be misapplied if one is not careful. For instance, people can have a physicalist worldview (i.e. the physically observable world is all there to existence) without being guilty of scientism.

Sometimes people throw the term around in the course of trying establish a false equivalence between science and religion, as if they are alternative, opposing, belief systems. That is nonsense. They are orthogonal rather than in opposition.

 

[TheVat]

Not to mention that nutrition and exercise factoids are just a skosh more monetizable than, say, carbon dating or evolution.

Are you kidding? Carbon dating is the latest trend for young singles hooking up.

 

[TheVat]

- British scientists have discovered that natural chocolate improves mood.

Haha. I think that was discovered by someone in Mesoamerica thousands of years ago. Somebody chewed on a cacao bean.

 

[Pinball1970]

can do is intuit from observation.

Ethology, this is what Dawkins researched and lectured.

 

[Pinball1970]

I don't know why I said that, it wasn't serious as the word scientism might not be a valid thing.

Do you realise how hard it is to back track on this forum? That shows class. I hope the other posters read it.
We have our faults but the British have class and we have a proud history of science, industrial innovation, technology, music and literature.
A bit like Germany but without the Holocaust stuff.

 

[Olga]

Do you realise how hard it is to back track on this forum? That shows class. I hope the other posters read it.
We have our faults but the British have class and we have a proud history of science, industrial innovation, technology, music and literature.
A bit like Germany but without the Holocaust stuff.

То же самое американцы говорят о своей стране, русские о своей, и все остальные тоже. Откуда берётся эта мания величия в общегосударственном масштабе? Или это другое?

 

[DaveC426913]

Do you realise how hard it is to back track on this forum? That shows class. I hope the other posters read it.

Duly noted.

 

[DaveC426913]

...the British [are] a bit like Germany but without the Holocaust stuff.

Great sig line.

 

[Olga]

Do you realise how hard it is to back track on this forum? That shows class. I hope the other posters read it.
We have our faults but the British have class and we have a proud history of science, industrial innovation, technology, music and literature.
A bit like Germany but without the Holocaust stuff.

Похоже, скоро вам придётся гордиться своими мечетями.

 

[Pinball1970]

Похоже, скоро вам придётся гордиться своими мечетями.

That's another discussion Olga.

 

[Olga]

That's another discussion Olga.

С Рождеством Христовым!

 

[TheVat]

A bit like Germany but without the Holocaust stuff.

Nothing like that. Just a bit of light starvation of Irish peasants.

And the concentration camps for the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya. And Tasmanian massacre by British settlers. And the Bengal famine et al when Britain diverted people's subsistence food to export. And that genocidal unpleasantness with the Aborigines. But yes, basically, none of that nasty Holocaust stuff.


Sorry, couldn't help myself. Just saying nobody's shit don't stink.

 

[Pinball1970]

Nothing like that. Just a bit of light starvation of Irish peasants.

And the concentration camps for the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya. And Tasmanian massacre by British settlers. And the Bengal famine et al when Britain diverted people's subsistence food to export. And that genocidal unpleasantness with the Aborigines. But yes, basically, none of that nasty Holocaust stuff.


Sorry, couldn't help myself. Just saying nobody's shit don't stink.

Ok ok. We made some bad calls.
You got Dickens though right? Every cloud and all that?

 

[DaveC426913]

Just saying nobody's shit don't stink.

Hey.
Canada here. Our shit doesn't st- Oh. Oh. No nonono. Very bad. Nevermind.

 

[exchemist]

No. I'm saying that the majority of people who are not theist say things like "the earth is 4.6 billions of years old in it?", "aye something like that" is a typical conversation I hear. The vast amount of people don't think too hard about these things. Same goes for theists. It's obviously a human thing. I call them sheep. It's like when the UK exited the EU, young folk thought we had left Europe, and some of the older folk. These are otherwise intelligent people, just mesmerised by media, all kinds.

What you have to remember James, this is an observation amongst the general public not a science school.

I don't go out wanting to hear something, I don't have a "methodology".

It's the same as theists believing in 6000yr old earth. They no doubt haven't looked into the various evidence against it.

Atheists generally don't read the bible, agnostics might I think, I did when I was agnostic.

"Are scientists fundamentalists? Is scientism like a religion?"

The thread title your complete misquote(dishonesty) of what I said and what scientism means.

I didn't say scientists are fundamentalist's, I said some.

Yes some fair points here. I agree entirely that most people simply don't ask themselves questions about things like the age of the Earth. So one can quite easily get churchgoers who know the Genesis story thinking it is literal. Not that many priests or ministers of religion will actually go to the trouble of pointing out that it is regarded by the church as an allegory, for fear of "upsetting the faith of simple people", as I've heard it described. (Our parish priest does point out the use of allegory in the bible, but this is a London parish with mostly fairly well-educated parishioners, so he presumably isn't afraid it will shock anyone.)

One does need to distinguish what people who may not have thought about it say they believe, if you ask them, from what the official teaching of the churches is, i.e what the priests, ministers and theologians will tell you if you ask.

As for scientism, I think we have now covered that.

 

[davewhite04]

We have discussed this and I agree with community spirit, looking out for each other, being self critical and thanking ones lucky stars. Also rationalizing ones unlucky stars. Feeling like a vulnerable human.
We diverge somewhere along the line but we cross over a lot too.
I respect your attitude towards it all and also UK Dave. I hope he is ok.

I've been feeling a bit out of sorts, my bipolar. I've been high for what seems months, now I came down and my commitments are getting the better of me. Things should gradually improve I hope.

Thanks Pinball for watching my back.

 

[davewhite04]

Yes some fair points here. I agree entirely that most people simply don't ask themselves questions about things like the age of the Earth. So one can quite easily get churchgoers who know the Genesis story thinking it is literal. Not that many priests or ministers of religion will actually go to the trouble of pointing out that it is regarded by the church as an allegory, for fear of "upsetting the faith of simple people", as I've heard it described. (Our parish priest does point out the use of allegory in the bible, but this is a London parish with mostly fairly well-educated parishioners, so he presumably isn't afraid it will shock anyone.)

One does need to distinguish what people who may not have thought about it say they believe, if you ask them, from what the official teaching of the churches is, i.e what the priests, ministers and theologians will tell you if you ask.

As for scientism, I think we have now covered that.

My mother has been in the Salvation Army (not uniform for many years) and I'm sure she would go with the scientists view given that my brother is a scientist who is clued up, I'm 100% convinced God won't be upset whatever you believe, it's not something to worry about for salvation.

What is worrying is the youth don't separate science from religion or they hear about evolution and disregard a spiritual walk.

Do you think that exchemist? Whatever you believe about the age of the earth it doesn't affect salvation...?

 

[davewhite04]

Do you realise how hard it is to back track on this forum? That shows class. I hope the other posters read it.
We have our faults but the British have class and we have a proud history of science, industrial innovation, technology, music and literature.
A bit like Germany but without the Holocaust stuff.

You made it easier with your class, not attacking me but questioning if I was "with it", takes a good person, another fine attribute that no one can take away from you.

 

[exchemist]

My mother has been in the Salvation Army (not uniform for many years) and I'm sure she would go with the scientists view given that my brother is a scientist who is clued up, I'm 100% convinced God won't be upset whatever you believe, it's not something to worry about for salvation.

What is worrying is the youth don't separate science from religion or they hear about evolution and disregard a spiritual walk.

Do you think that exchemist? Whatever you believe about the age of the earth it doesn't affect salvation...?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. Firstly I can't follow the premise that "the youth" don't separate science from religion. What is it you have mind that shows this?

To the extent that learning about evolution puts young people off religion, that is entirely the fault of those strands of religion that fail to show how it doesn't conflict with religious belief.

I myself once even had to rebuke a Catholic (!) catechist, who seemed stumped when I observed that obviously it is untrue that death literally entered the world with the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. If that were true, all the animals in the past woud be immortal! Not only would we be overrun with dinosaurs, but there would be no fossils and evolution could not function. She had never joined the dots and thought this through. It fell to the priest to agree with me that to make any sense this idea (of St. Paul's, I think?) it has to be seen as spiritual death rather than physical death.

I told her I found it shocking that someone instructing the young in the Catholic faith did not explain how to reconcile it with modern science. I pointed out children learn about dinosaurs and evolution at about the age of 8 these days, so it is not fair to leave them with cognitive dissonance over a thing like this. All that will do is make them suspicious of religious teaching: a major own-goal. She was uncomfortable, but I hope the message got through.

As for the question about salvation, I happen to think preoccupation with this is very much a Protestant "hellfire" thing and overdone, but it clearly has nothing to do with one's level of understanding of science.