Are Out-of-body and/or Near-death experiences real or hallucinations?

[davewhite04]

Other than, you know, actual hallucinations.

Yes, I know they are convincing to say the least. But there is a massive difference between an OBE and a hallucination.

 

[DaveC426913]

I read the bible, books relating to evolution, and books on the Holy spirit. I discovered NDE/OBEs(not much available back then compared to now). I didn't realise coming out of your body is uncommon, even rare but it still happens. So I gained knowledge from all over the place including my experiences.

You are making an interpretation wherein you correlate stuff you've read and a surreal event that you experienced.

That is a personal interpretation - it is not knowledge.

Consider this similar (hypothetical) example:

I was at a casino, watching a roulette wheel from the background. Three times in a row I predicted what number would come up and I was right each time. I've read a lot about parapsychology and telepathy. I concluded that I have telepathic abilities, and a rapport with the roulette wheel. By this I have gained personal knowledge of parapsychic phenomena.

Well, no:
It's one interpretation.
It's highly premature. There are many other explanations I can't rule out.
I have no way, other than my own belief, that my interpretation of telepathy is the correct explanation.
Nobody has ever confirmed the objective existence of telepathy.
It has not actually provided me any knowledge of anything.

Likewise with your NDEs/OBEs:

It's one interpretation.
It's highly premature. There are many other explanations you can't rule out.
You have no way, other than your own belief, that your interpretation of NDE/OBE is the correct explanation.
Nobody has ever confirmed the objective existence of NDEs or OBEs.
It has not actually provided you any knowledge of anything.

 

[billvon]

Yes, I know they are convincing to say the least. But there is a massive difference between an OBE and a hallucination.

I have no doubt that the two (febrile hallucinations and OBE) are very different. But there is no evidence that OBE's are anything other than a powerful hallucination. If your experience was powerful/lifechanging/enlightening that's great and I am happy for you. But the amount the experience helped you does not demonstrate that you really left your body and were astrally traveling (or whatever the term is.)

 

[gmilam]

I used to know a guy who claimed to have had out of body experiences as a child. These happened at night when he stayed with his grandmother. He also told me that his grandmother was a natve american medicine woman.

Personally, I think that his grandmother made some herbal tea to help him sleep. And it had the added bonus of vivid dreams.

 

[foghorn]

(or whatever the term is.)

Fare dodging?

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

??No. I believe that hallucinations vary in perceived reality. Some seem so real that people act on them. Some seem like vague dreams.

Sedrick Letzie Norris, for example, had a long bout of depression, including hallucinations and hearing voices. The voices told him to kill himself. He tried but failed. The voices then told him to shoot his wife and kids. Sadly, he succeeded there, and in 2016 shot and killed his wife and shot four of his children. His hallucinations were real enough that they overcame his reluctance to kill a woman he loved.

When I was hallucinating while febrile, the hallucinations made no sense, and although scary (the shadow man with no face that kept coming into my room) I was able to realize they were false once I recovered a bit.

With your points, I can easily suggest that your life is a vivid hallucination and you are not really here.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

I have no doubt that the two (febrile hallucinations and OBE) are very different. But there is no evidence that OBE's are anything other than a powerful hallucination. If your experience was powerful/lifechanging/enlightening that's great and I am happy for you. But the amount the experience helped you does not demonstrate that you really left your body and were astrally traveling (or whatever the term is.)

I know I left my body, since I was aware of reentering it.

 

[Randwolf]

In a NDE/OBE you come out of your body with no brain.

Much better at every good thing(well what I've experienced), with no flaws, that's what I experienced. It's the YOU in you. Meaning, an aspect of what makes you on earth is eternal.

EDIT: Funny you should mention DMT. I met someone who did have an DMT induced OBE! I think his spirit/soul was released from his body using DMT. He flew around the room looking at himself!

What is your definition of "hallucination?"

How does one distinguish reality from hallucination?

 

[billvon]

With your points, I can easily suggest that your life is a vivid hallucination and you are not really here.

You sure could. Unlikely (I would have to have the most amazing and consistent imagination ever) but possible.

I know I left my body, since I was aware of reentering it.

OK. I will agree that that's what it felt like to you.

 

[DaveC426913]

With your points, I can easily suggest that your life is a vivid hallucination and you are not really here.

No, This fails. His memories and experiences are consistent in a preponderance of details with by independent experiences, such as friends, family and internet forum users.

[EDIT: See TheVats post, below]

That's what makes them objective. That's what makes them not hallucinatory. DaveW, though he is certain of the experience that happened to him, has no way of verifying the actual explanation for his experience.

I know I left my body, since I was aware of reentering it.

Your feeling of returning to your body would feel just as real as the feeling of exiting your body in the first place.

 

[TheVat]

What is your definition of "hallucination?"

How does one distinguish reality from hallucination?

Consensus.

 

[Olga]

What is your definition of "hallucination?"

How does one distinguish reality from hallucination?

Если два и больше человека видят одно и то же, это может считаться не галлюцинацией, насколько я помню.

 

[DaveC426913]

If two or more people see the same thing, it may not be considered a hallucination, as far as I remember.

It's an asymptotic thing.
It's quite possible for two - or even many - people to have the same or similar hallucinations. There are many recorded cases. A very famous one is the Miracle of Fatima October 13, 1917.

Still, yes, multiple independent accounts of the same event - are a good indicator of its objectiveness - though it does have to be tempered with other factors, such as whether the event has a possible natural explanation.

 

[Randwolf]

Consensus.

That would certainly provide some evidence.

We can start there. Do you suppose that davewhite04 have consensus on any of his stories?

------------------------------------------

davewhite04, is there anyone that will attest to your OBE/NDEs? Wait... How would that even work?

Perhaps you have other compelling & objective evidence for your experiences?

Surely there is more than "It felt real to me, dude!" - right, dave?

Please share...

 

[DaveC426913]

That would certainly provide some evidence.

Hard to read you here. I will assume the worst case and you can correct me,

We're not talking about consensus that NDEs and OBEs are real; we're talking about consensus on the events the Dave personally experienced - i.e., a witness. Agree?

We can start there. Do you suppose that davewhite04 have consensus on any of his stories?

You mean consensus that his soul really did leave his body and return. As in: somebody else witnessed it.

 

[Randwolf]

Hard to read you here. I will assume the worst case and you can correct me,

We're not talking about consensus that NDEs and OBEs are real; we're talking about consensus on the events the Dave personally experienced - i.e., a witness. Agree?

Agreed - but I would listen if someone asserts that there is "consensus that NDEs and OBEs are real." Kind of doubt there will be any takers, though...

You mean consensus that his soul really did leave his body and return. As in: somebody else witnessed it.

You got it - I think you know where this is headed, right?

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Agreed - but I would listen if someone asserts that there is "consensus that NDEs and OBEs are real." Kind of doubt there will be any takers, though...


You got it - I think you know where this is headed, right?

You would know how real they are if you ever had one. Lacking that will always consist of believers and skeptics.

 

[TheVat]

You got it - I think you know where this is headed, right?

Aye, there's the rub. These things all hit the same epistemic wall. How do others witness an experience that is sui generis to the one person. The whole thing with an OBE is its subjective nature - no one watching Dave while he astrally projects is likely to see anything other than Dave snoozing. All that's left are anecdotes about astral projectors (projectors, is that the term?) who themselves see something, say during surgery, which they couldn't see or have knowledge of from their location on the operating table - like that oft-repeated blue tennis shoe anecdote.

The Shoe on the Ledge: Kimberly Clark Sharp's Account of Maria's NDE - Elizabeth Whitworth

Kimberly Clark Sharp says a woman named Maria saw a shoe on the ledge of the hospital when she was flatlining. I examine the story.

elizabethwhitworth.com

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Aye, there's the rub. These things all hit the same epistemic wall. How do others witness an experience that is sui generis to the one person. The whole thing with an OBE is its subjective nature - no one watching Dave while he astrally projects is likely to see anything other than Dave snoozing. All that's left are anecdotes about astral projectors (projectors, is that the term?) who themselves see something, say during surgery, which they couldn't see or have knowledge of from their location on the operating table - like that oft-repeated blue tennis shoe anecdote.

It's not astral projection. It is a true "I've gone somewhere else" experience.

 

[DaveC426913]

Aye, there's the rub. These things all hit the same epistemic wall. How do others witness an experience that is sui generis to the one person. The whole thing with an OBE is its subjective nature - no one watching Dave while he astrally projects is likely to see anything other than Dave snoozing. All that's left are anecdotes about astral projectors (projectors, is that the term?) who themselves see something, say during surgery, which they couldn't see or have knowledge of from their location on the operating table - like that oft-repeated blue tennis shoe anecdote.

The Shoe on the Ledge: Kimberly Clark Sharp's Account of Maria's NDE - Elizabeth Whitworth

Kimberly Clark Sharp says a woman named Maria saw a shoe on the ledge of the hospital when she was flatlining. I examine the story.

elizabethwhitworth.com

Yes, but of course, just because it;s very difficult (if not impossible) to verify, doesn't mean we lower our standards for the burden of proof.

I've had similar arguments about ghosts and UFOs, where proponents plead that "it's really hard to have independent verifiication of events that no one sees coming and are gone in miutes. With that requirement it's almost impossible..." Yeah.