Antibody Dependent Enhancement?

[billvon]

This explain many things relevant to OP.

From that article:

It's not a big deal to begin with and researchers have seen no problems: "No definitive role for ADE in human coronavirus diseases has been established."

Effective vaccines will not be a significant risk: "These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE."

Inactivated virus vaccines (which we do not use) might be a problem: "Vaccines with a high theoretical risk of inducing pathologic ADE or ERD include inactivated viral vaccines . . ."

How will we know if the vaccines are safe? "Should it occur, ERD caused by human vaccines will first be observed in larger phase II and/or phase III efficacy trials that have sufficient infection events for statistical comparisons between the immunized and placebo control study arms." We did those larger phase II and phase III trials and it was not observed. (This paper was published 10 months ago, before the vaccine trials were completed.)

So it turns out it's not a problem. Good news, eh?

 

[KUMAR5]

?? They create antibodies that are reactive against the antigens generated by the vaccine. Since mRNA vaccines are designed to express specific epitopes, we do actually know what antibodies we will see.

You are right. Thanks.

It is also well explained here:-

Antibodies different in vaccination and natural infection

There was a difference between the antibodies elicited by natural infection compared to that from the vaccine. Since the vaccine does not have the nucleocapsid protein, there are no antibodies against this in the vaccine-induced antibodies. However, antibodies against nucleocapsid were seen in natural infection, suggesting this could be a biomarker for natural infection.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...iffers-from-natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection.aspx

And new viruses may make it invalid. But for the SARS-CoV-2 strains we know about TODAY we are OK.

Yes.

 

[KUMAR5]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7483033/table/tbl0005/?report=objectonly

ADE in Coronavirus family.

 

[exchemist]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7483033/table/tbl0005/?report=objectonly

ADE in Coronavirus family.

So what?

There is no ADE reported so far in this epidemic and, if there were, it is probable that vaccination would be less likely to induce it than natural infection.

 

[KUMAR5]

So what?

There is no ADE reported so far in this epidemic and, if there were, it is probable that vaccination would be less likely to induce it than natural infection.

Yes it is not reported as of now. Hope, it also does not come in future. It depend on vaccine if antibodies developed by these do not have antibody function of
Opsonization.

 

[exchemist]

Yes it is not reported as of now. Hope, it also does not come in future. It depend on vaccine if antibodies developed by these do not have antibody function of
Opsonization.

I suggest you stop digging around, in a subject you do not understand, for potential reasons against vaccination. There is no avenue here to help you peddle your homeopathic remedies. The fact is the vaccines work and people should all get vaccinated as fast as possible, to reduce the likelihood of new variants, which is the only way this kind of problem (ADE) is ever going to arise in future.

 

[KUMAR5]

I suggest you stop digging around, in a subject you do not understand, for potential reasons against vaccination. There is no avenue here to help you peddle your homeopathic remedies [\quote]
Sorry, you misunderstood me. I simply want to understand more about Covid related things. It appears to be everyone's need, right and duty due to prevailing environment.

The fact is the vaccines work and people should all get vaccinated as fast as possible, to reduce the likelihood of new variants, which is the only way this kind of problem (ADE) is ever going to arise in future.

It shoukd be yes for getting new variant even with ADE. But how antibodies developed by infection or by vaccinatiin will impact, need better understanding. We may have to anticipate that antibodies generated due to vaccines eill not perform its all 4 basic functions but will only perform one out of 4 functions i.e. neutralization of Covid virus. Ok?

 

[exchemist]

No. Why would this be "anticipated"?

And, even if it were to occur, why do you think this would be a feature of antibodies created by vaccination, specifically, rather than those created by infection?

 

[KUMAR5]

No. Why would this be "anticipated"?

And, even if it were to occur, why do you think this would be a feature of antibodies created by vaccination, specifically, rather than those created by infection?

For it, we need to understand more about antibodies created by vaccines. If such antibodies can aid to ADE.

 

[exchemist]

For it, we need to understand more about antibodies created by vaccines. If such antibodies can aid to ADE.

No, we don't. We need everyone to get vaccinated, fast, before any new variants arise that partially evade the antibodies produced by natural infection.

 

[billvon]

But how antibodies developed by infection or by vaccinatiin will impact, need better understanding.

Then by all means read up on immunology so you can get that better understanding.

We may have to anticipate that antibodies generated due to vaccines eill not perform its all 4 basic functions but will only perform one out of 4 functions i.e. neutralization of Covid virus. Ok?

Antibodies have three main functions, not four. They bind to antigens and can often neutralize viruses from that action alone. They provide a trigger for white blood cells to attack and consume large pathogens. They also activate the complement system to enable lysis of bacteria. In the case of coronaviruses, only the first one is important. (Phagocytosis can also happen but is not of primary importance.)

So yes, antibodies will perform their one primary function of neutralizing COVID viruses. That's what we want it to do. That's why the vaccine works. The fact that antibodies will not attack/kill SARS-CoV-2 bacteria is of no importance since there is no such thing as a SARS-CoV-2 bacteria.

 

[KUMAR5]

Antibodies have three main functions, not four. They bind to antigens and can often neutralize viruses from that action alone. They provide a trigger for white blood cells to attack and consume large pathogens. They also activate the complement system to enable lysis of bacteria. In the case of coronaviruses, only the first one is important. (Phagocytosis can also happen but is not of primary importance.)

So yes, antibodies will perform their one primary function of neutralizing COVID viruses. That's what we want it to do. That's why the vaccine works. The fact that antibodies will not attack/kill SARS-CoV-2 bacteria is of no importance since there is no such thing as a SARS-CoV-2 bacteria.

Four functions are mentioned as neutralization, agglutination, precipitation and complement activation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody
However, these can also be broadly defined as you defined.
Then, are you suggesting that special antibodies eill be generated due to vaccination esp by spike protein based vaccines which will just perform one function of netralization instead of 3 or 4 which can be possible in case of antibodies generated either by infection or by whole virus based vaccines? Is it not bit odd antibodies loose their basic functions?

 

[billvon]

Then, are you suggesting that special antibodies eill be generated due to vaccination esp by spike protein based vaccines which will just perform one function of netralization instead of 3 or 4 which can be possible in case of antibodies generated either by infection or by whole virus based vaccines? Is it not bit odd antibodies loose their basic functions?

For god's sake do a little reading before you make statements like this. Several of those functions work best against bacteria. BACTERIA. Bacteria are living cells; little organisms that invade your body and multiply. They are not viruses. Antibodies are not SUPPOSED to work the same way against viruses, which are not alive and use your own cells to propagate themselves.

 

[KUMAR5]

No, we don't. We need everyone to get vaccinated, fast, before any new variants arise that partially evade the antibodies produced by natural infection.

Yes this should be the goal but how infection from new varisnts can be avoided after vaccination which may just be effective for current covid 19 virus? Can current vaccines be effective on all possible' virus variants? Inspite of vaccination, few can still harbour new variants. Will then we may need to research for those new variants and vaccinate all again and again?

 

[KUMAR5]

For god's sake do a little reading before you make statements like this. Several of those functions work best against bacteria. BACTERIA. Bacteria are living cells; little organisms that invade your body and multiply. They are not viruses. Antibodies are not SUPPOSED to work the same way against viruses, which are not alive and use your own cells to propagate themselves.

Anyway, yours and mine definition does not make much difference. You just combined 2nd and 3rd function in one function as mentioned by you. Anyway let me clear it.

Whether there is just a quantitative difference in antibodies generated due to spike protein and due to nucleocapsid protein or also a qualitative difference? I mean whether both type of antibodies are same but with a simple difference in quantity not in quality?
I think both are IgG antibodies.

 

[exchemist]

Yes this should be the goal but how infection from new varisnts can be avoided after vaccination which may just be effective for current covid 19 virus? Can current vaccines be effective on all possible' virus variants? Inspite of vaccination, few can still harbour new variants. Will then we may need to research for those new variants and vaccinate all again and again?

If you read newspapers you would know there has been extensive discussion, for over a year now, of whether or not repeat vaccinations, optimised for the variants in circulation at the time, may be needed at regular repeat intervals, just as has been done for years with 'flu' vaccines.

In many countries, including the UK where I live, annual flu vaccination is offered to anyone over 60 or with relevant medical conditions. Each year it is a different one, adapted to the variants of flu expected to be dominant in the coming winter season. A Covid vaccination could easily be added to that existing programme - though its scope would presumably need to be extended to younger age groups.

We will have to wait and see. This disease has only existed for 18 months. It is far too soon to know what we will need to do to control it long term. It's not lack of research, or a lack of medical capability. It is simply that not enough time has elapsed.

Nobody has ever claimed a single Covid vaccination will magically preserve someone from every conceivable new variant, for all time. But what is absolutely for sure is that, without vaccination, many millions will die, as they are doing today, all over India.

 

[KUMAR5]

If you read newspapers you would know there has been extensive discussion, for over a year now, of whether or not repeat vaccinations, optimised for the variants in circulation at the time, may be needed at regular repeat intervals, just as has been done for years with 'flu' vaccines.

I
Nobody has ever claimed a single Covid vaccination will magically preserve someone from every conceivable new variant, for all time. But what is absolutely for sure is that, without vaccination, many millions will die, as they are doing today, all over India.

Flu

Yes, that will be going to be a big problem to give repeated and occasional Covid Vaccine to whole population esp in a country with high population like India.probably by the Flu is still a tolerable disease but we can not leave a single person without proper Covid vaccine because it can again spread easily. As of now even after many months, even ist dose could not be given to majority of people and probably by the time ist dose is completed, those who have already taken vaccine previously become due to take again(as immunity may last just for 6-12 months). I think it is impractical here.
Inspite of it death rate in India per million is quite less i.e. 262 whereas for UK it is 1874.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

India is not in so bad state as wrongly anticipated by other countries.

 

[KUMAR5]

. Antibodies contribute to immunity in three ways: preventing pathogens from entering or damaging cells by binding to them (neutralization); stimulating removal of pathogens by macrophages and other cells by coating the pathogen (opsonization); and triggering destruction of pathogens by stimulating other immune responses such as the complement pathway. The complement system starts a long cascade of protein productions that either opsonize a pathogen for phagocytosis or lyse it directly by forming a membrane attack complex. During opsonization, the antibody expresses the tail for an Fc receptor on a macrophage, neutrophil, or natural killer cell. The immune cell will then bind to the antibody’s Fc tail instead of the pathogen itself, which speeds up the process of finding pathogens to phagocytize. Additionally, because antibodies have two or more paratopes, they can sometimes link pathogens together, making phagocytosis more efficient.
https://med.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Anatomy_and_Physiology/Book:_Anatomy_and_Physiology_(Boundless)/20:_Immune_System/20.6:_Humoral_Immune_Response/20.6B:_Structure_and_Function_of_Antibodies

Three functions of antibodies are well explained sbove. Fourth function is also indicated at last.
It is enabling phagocytosis function by antibodies which is linked to ADE not other function.

 

[billvon]

Three functions of antibodies are well explained sbove. Fourth function is also indicated at last.
It is enabling phagocytosis function by antibodies which is linked to ADE not other function.

Do you understand that bacteria are different than viruses?

 

[KUMAR5]

Do you understand that bacteria are different than viruses?

Yes they are different but if phagocytosis of viruses would not had been there, ADE in few viruses would had also not be possible. But it still happen.