Antibody Dependent Enhancement?

K

KUMAR5

Valued Senior Member
Hello all,
Greetings!

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE) is doubted but not yet observed in Covid-19. However, since it exist in few virus of coronavirus family, its posdibility in some variant of Covid 19 virus can be suspected. If so, my question is
:-
Will it be limited to antibody producing vaccines or durgs or will slso happen from natural infection from which also antibodies are developed and how it will impact us?

Best wishes.
 
exchemist said:
Montagnier has been nuts for about 20 years now, I'm afraid. You can safely ignore anything he says.
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Thanks and welcome.

However, does it not look logical that since roll out and exposure of a virus is much more during pandemic so any resistance or threat to its survival can lead to getting its more variants?
 
KUMAR5 said:
Thanks and welcome.

However, does it not look logical that since roll out and exposure of a virus is much more during pandemic so any resistance or threat to its survival can lead to getting its more variants?
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It is true that the selection pressures on the virus will become more intense once the population is largely vaccinated. But to argue that this means nobody should vaccinated is like saying we should all be allowed to catch smallpox or polio, for fear of variants emerging. It's crap, obviously.

Vaccination does not make it easier for variants to develop. It just means that vaccine-resistant variants become the only way for the virus to survive.

It's a stupid argument.
 
exchemist said:
It is true that the selection pressures on the virus will become more intense once the population is largely vaccinated. But to argue that this means nobody should vaccinated is like saying we should all be allowed to catch smallpox or polio, for fear of variants emerging. It's crap, obviously.

Vaccination does not make it easier for variants to develop. It just means that vaccine-resistant variants become the only way for the virus to survive.

It's a stupid argument.
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You are right. Our priority is to control the curruent virus. If sny new variant, even more virulent, come later, that will also be dealt accordingly. We can not take chance of ignoring this virus for the time being eventhough our interventions may lead to getting new and more virulent(may be with ADE capability) variant.
Like eg. We may get antibiotic resistsnce but still do not ignore antibiotics on any infection. No choice.
 
.2 Yes however we may have no choice except to accept ongoing and curruent options available. Whatever these options can bring on ultimate is currently secondary thought. However we can definately evaluate all availble options and opt best possible and practical option which harm us minimally currently and on ultimate. Few options, which I personally can think should be as under:-
1. Natural cure(risky).
2. Preventive measures(mask etc).
3. Preventive and immune boosting treatments.
4. Aggressive treatments.
5. Vaccination promoting Cocktail of Antibodies.
6. Vaccinations promoting specific antibody.
7. Vaccination promoting cocktail or specific cellular responses.
8. Vaccination promoting Cocktail of above.
9. Others?( Pls tell)
Some out of above may support getting variant with enhanced virluence others wth no or lesser being more natural.

So pls comment on best possible and practical option. Good luck to all of us.
 
jad-77-jad200831-g001.jpg


The above image of Covid-19 Virus show many of its parts and proteins. Will all these act as antigenic and immunogentic attract multiple
antibodies and immune responses. Hence it will be different from antigencity and immunogencity and resulted antibody and immune responses from
different type of vaccines. So we can try to understand, whether immune responses against natural infection or against whole live virus is more or less effective
than from vaccines esp in bringing virus variants?

Whether Vaccines based on whole virus( live attuned or inactivated virus) type being more close to live virus and conventional in nature than a part of virus based(Sub-unit, Viral vector or mRNA) being a deviation to live virus or natural infection and non-conventional will be more or less effective esp in bringing virus variants? Very important.
 
What can be the possibility of getting Covid virus virant with ADE capability any time in future as suspected by Nobel prize winner virologist (quoted here previously)?
This esp can be a thought in view of this ADE capabilty exist in few other members of Coronavirus family.
 
KUMAR5 said:
What can be the possibility of getting Covid virus virant with ADE capability any time in future as suspected by Nobel prize winner virologist (quoted here previously)?
This esp can be a thought in view of this ADE capabilty exist in few other members of Coronavirus family.
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Don't talk in riddles.

What Nobel prizewinner?

And with what coronaviruses is ADE a problem?
 
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exchemist said:
Don't talk in riddles.

What Nobel prizewinner?

And with what coronaviruses is ADE a problem?
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33717193/

"The novel coronavirus poses a great challenge and has caused a wave of panic. In this review, antibody-dependent enhancements in dengue virus and two kinds of coronavirus are summarized. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32920233/

The viruses that can cause ADE frequently share some common features such as antigenic diversity, abilities to replicate and establish persistence in immune cells.[1] ADE can occur during the development of a primary or secondary viral infection, as well as after vaccination with a subsequent virus challenge.[1][7][8] It has been observed mainly with positive-strand RNA viruses. Among them are Flaviviruses such as Dengue virus,[9]Yellow fever virus, Zika virus,[10][11]Coronaviruses, including alpha- and betacoronaviruses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement
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It is indicated on many sites. Few are above,

I quoted it in my previous post in this thread. He has also suspected about ADE Possibility.

"May 19, 2021 (LifeSiteNews) – French virologist and Nobel Prize winner Luc Montagnier called..."
....
Many epidemiologists know it and are “silent” about the problem known as “antibody-dependent enhancement,” Montagnier said.

“It is the antibodies produced by the virus that enable an infection to become stronger,” he said in an interview with Pierre Barnérias of Hold-Up Media earlier this month.....
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/n...eptable-mistake-that-is-creating-the-variants
 
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KUMAR5 said:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33717193/

"The novel coronavirus poses a great challenge and has caused a wave of panic. In this review, antibody-dependent enhancements in dengue virus and two kinds of coronavirus are summarized. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32920233/



It is indicated on many sites. Few are above,

I quoted it in my previous post in this thread. He has also suspected about ADE Possibility.

"May 19, 2021 (LifeSiteNews) – French virologist and Nobel Prize winner Luc Montagnier called..."
....
Many epidemiologists know it and are “silent” about the problem known as “antibody-dependent enhancement,” Montagnier said.

“It is the antibodies produced by the virus that enable an infection to become stronger,” he said in an interview with Pierre Barnérias of Hold-Up Media earlier this month.....
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/n...eptable-mistake-that-is-creating-the-variants
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So your Nobel prizewinner is the discredited and bonkers Montagnier. Again. I see.

I will just make two points:

1) There is no evidence of ADE in SARS-CoV-2.

2) Furthermore, if such a thing were to arise, it would be most likely to arise via weak immunity to one strain of virus, as a result of being infected with it, which might not be adequate to fight off a second, different strain. Whereas the vaccines, or many of them, have been designed to generate antibodies to multiple sites on the virus. It is therefore far less likely that vaccine immunity would be weak enough to allow ADE, than the immunity generated by infection with a particular strain.

There is no way any of this is an argument against vaccination.

What is your purpose in posting all this stuff? This has been going on for pages now. You seem to be desperately hunting for some kind of anti-vaccination argument.
 
exchemist said:
So your Nobel prizewinner is the discredited and bonkers Montagnier. Again. I see.
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I am not making base of him but making a base of an existing concept. Therefore I have also given other links.

I will just make two points:

1) There is no evidence of ADE in SARS-CoV-2. [\quote]
Yes, I already indicated it in my OP. However its possibility is anti cipated in view of it happen to few viruses and also to Coronavirus family members.

2) Furthermore, if such a thing were to arise, it would be most likely to arise via weak immunity to one strain of virus, as a result of being infected with it, which might not be adequate to fight off a second, different strain. Whereas the vaccines, or many of them, have been designed to generate antibodies to multiple sites on the virus. It is therefore far less likely that vaccine immunity would be weak enough to allow ADE, than the immunity generated by infection with a particular strain.

There is no way any of this is an argument against vaccination.

What is your purpose in posting all this stuff? This has been going on for pages now. You seem to be desperately hunting for some kind of anti-vaccination argument.
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I am not relating it particularly with vaccination side effect but relating it to getting variants and to antibody formation by any mean. I myself already taken two doses of vaccine, so can not be anti vaccine promoter. But simply want to know it better in view of many odd things sre prevailing like anyone article cle. Yes, perhaps vaccination may resist or restrict virus infection and its growth, so may also restrict getting variants. But antibody formation is supported by these. So if virus varíant with ADE capacity come in future by anyway, such non reversible and long term antibodies may support that virus.

Btw, how single unit based i.e. spike protein based mRNA vaccine is degined to generate antibodies to multiple sites of virus(as you indicated)?
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KUMAR5 said:
What can be the possibility of getting Covid virus virant with ADE capability any time in future as suspected by Nobel prize winner virologist (quoted here previously)?
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There have been Nobel prizewinners who supported Hitler, who came up with medical treatments that are horrifically bad and who created chemical weapons.

Winning a Nobel prize means you did something notable. It does not mean your opinions are correct.
 
billvon said:
There have been Nobel prizewinners who supported Hitler, who came up with medical treatments that are horrifically bad and who created chemical weapons.

Winning a Nobel prize means you did something notable. It does not mean your opinions are correct.
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I told, we may not base him but can think on ADE concept he has indicated. I therefore also gave other links. ADE concept in some virus and in few other members of Coronavirus family is reality, so we can discuss on it. Forget what he suspected. Whether it can be acquired either by natural infection or vaccination aid it, can be discussed. It does not mean I am an snti vaccine supporter.
Look for example, suppose in a country with 1000 million population 1% or 1 million get natural infection without taking any preventive measure. So antibodies will be developed just in theses 1 million people. If ADE variant is evolved( I pray it should not) than these 1 million people will open to this variant. It will be much less than 1000 million if these all develop antibodies and are open to this new variant. This is big difference. In this type of virus antibodies can just serve as a mean to enhance infection.
 
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KUMAR5 said:
I told, we may not base him but can think on ADE concept he has indicated. I therefore also gave other links.
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From the Nature article:

It's not a big deal to begin with and researchers have seen no problems: "No definitive role for ADE in human coronavirus diseases has been established."

Effective vaccines will not be a significant risk: "These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE."

Inactivated virus vaccines (which we do not use) might be a problem: "Vaccines with a high theoretical risk of inducing pathologic ADE or ERD include inactivated viral vaccines . . ."

How will we know if the vaccines are safe? "Should it occur, ERD caused by human vaccines will first be observed in larger phase II and/or phase III efficacy trials that have sufficient infection events for statistical comparisons between the immunized and placebo control study arms." We did those larger phase II and phase III trials and it was not observed. (This paper was published 10 months ago, before the vaccine trials were completed.)

So it turns out it's not a problem. Good news, eh?
 
billvon said:
From the Nature article:

It's not a big deal to begin with and researchers have seen no problems: "No definitive role for ADE in human coronavirus diseases has been established."
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Yes but it may not mean, it can not be developed in any future variant.

Effective vaccines will not be a significant risk: "These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE."

Inactivated virus vaccines (which we do not use) might be a problem: "Vaccines with a high theoretical risk of inducing pathologic ADE or ERD include inactivated viral vaccines . . ."
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Whichever vaccine decrease chance of getting Virus infection will also serve a goal to getting decreased variants since getting variants should be infection dependent. The whole consideration is antibodies developed by the natural infection or by vaccines. All vaccines will stimulate antibody developments and also so the natural infection.But here not e, thought is of numbers. Numbers will be much less in case of natural infection but much more in case of vaccines for antibody development. I am not sure if spike protein based vaccines simply develop neutralizing antibodies not others. Spike protein antibody test do not express only neutralizing antibodies.


How will we know if the vaccines are safe? "Should it occur, ERD caused by human vaccines will first be observed in larger phase II and/or phase III efficacy trials that have sufficient infection events for statistical comparisons between the immunized and placebo control study arms." We did those larger phase II and phase III trials and it was not observed. (This paper was published 10 months ago, before the vaccine trials were completed.)

So it turns out it's not a problem. Good news, eh?
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It may not universely valid for all the time in future. New variants may make it obsolete.
 
KUMAR5 said:
I am not sure if spike protein based vaccines simply develop neutralizing antibodies not others.
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?? They create antibodies that are reactive against the antigens generated by the vaccine. Since mRNA vaccines are designed to express specific epitopes, we do actually know what antibodies we will see.
It may not universely valid for all the time in future. New variants may make it obsolete.
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And new viruses may make it invalid. But for the SARS-CoV-2 strains we know about TODAY we are OK.
 
Antibody-dependent enhancement and SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and therapies
Nature Microbiology volume 5, pages1185–1191 (2020)
Abstract
Antibody-based drugs and vaccines against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) are being expedited through preclinical and clinical development. Data from the study of SARS-CoV and other respiratory viruses suggest that anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies could exacerbate COVID-19 through antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). Previous respiratory syncytial virus and dengue virus vaccine studies revealed human clinical safety risks related to ADE, resulting in failed vaccine trials. Here, we describe key ADE mechanisms and discuss mitigation strategies for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and therapies in development. We also outline recently published data to evaluate the risks and opportunities for antibody-based protection against SARS-CoV-2.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5
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This explain many things relevant to OP.
 
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