And because it's the core of the issue Cultural Capital on Wiki
and sam bites the dust again..
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Bells
Staff member
It is not your decision to make.
It is their culture, not yours or Sam's. What astounds me is that some demand their spiritual or religious beliefs be respected on this forum. But when it comes to the spiritual beliefs of other cultures, they feel quite free to denigrate, demean or view it as delusional. The hypocrisy of all this is quite funny, especially when one considers its source.
After all, demonise the Europeans for taking away Maori rights and culture and land, but then refer to Maori's as delusional, demean and deny them the right to said culture and spiritual connections to each other and to their land.. because one does not believe in bloodties.
You might not approve of blood ties or consider it to be "base". Fine. Then you don't have to believe in it. Maori's, on the other hand, do believe in it and have believed in it for a hell of a long time. Their facial tattoos, for example, were how they would recognise what blood tie or family tie the other had. That is their history. For outsiders to continue to deny them that historical connection is racist.
I have to ask. How does Islam accept Maori culture and their spiritual beliefs?Sam said:
Does Islam allow for Maori's to have their own cultural practices and beliefs? Christianity in the Pacific, has blended with the local native cultures, whereby the Indigenous populations have been able to hold on to their culture and continue their cultural practices without religious restrictions.
How does Islam equate with the traditional Hangi for example, with Pork being one of the traditional meats cooked in a Hangi? How about the killing of the animals themselves?
What about their Moko which traditionally defined their identity and their familial ties? Are they allowed that?
sandy:
You don't understand how warnings work. If you report a post about somebody insulting you, say, and a moderator decides to warn the member responsible, they hit a button and an official warning message is sent to that member by Private Message. You will never see such a warning given to somebody else, for the very simple reason that you cannot read other people's private messages.
The simple fact is that such warnings have been sent to people who have personally attacked you, whether you know it or not.
You don't understand how warnings work. If you report a post about somebody insulting you, say, and a moderator decides to warn the member responsible, they hit a button and an official warning message is sent to that member by Private Message. You will never see such a warning given to somebody else, for the very simple reason that you cannot read other people's private messages.
The simple fact is that such warnings have been sent to people who have personally attacked you, whether you know it or not.
Ok, fine. Then I apologize for my mistake. I have been warned publically and banned openly/publicly. I thought it worked the same for everyone.
I think they just drink and dream of painting half their faces blue and killing us. King over the water, frrreedom and sequined battle gowns. Show me a Scot and I'll show you a nationalist of some type or other.
Bells
Staff member
Maybe they should do as Sam said and be like the Dalits.
Although they often threaten mass suicides and they probably have a higher suicide rate.. Hmmm..
But maybe New Zealand should follow India's example as to how they treat Maori's, and treat them like India treats Dalits. No, that's pretty fucked up as well, what with walls and the extreme discrimination and denying them their rights to their lands and their livelihood..
Bells
Staff member
Ermm wait.. that's not normal?GeoffP said:
Sexy!
Especially if said with the proper accent.. Swing that sporran!
Or maybe not..
Damn nationalists..
And the same person who says that its alright to mock other peoples religious beliefs is now defending ethnocentrism, which is really a kind of racism that puts people out of a group because they are unable to trace something as irrelevant as blood ties, even if people are being negatively affected in their personal identity by such
So what gives?
Maybe they should do as Sam said and be like the Dalits.
Although they often threaten mass suicides and they probably have a higher suicide rate.. Hmmm..
But maybe New Zealand should follow India's example as to how they treat Maori's, and treat them like India treats Dalits. No, that's pretty fucked up as well, what with walls and the extreme discrimination and denying them their rights to their lands and their livelihood..
According to your own gibberish you should be respecting the beliefs that cause this. Do you respect the caste system Bells? Even though it is irrelevant and inhumane? Do you?
Whats your opinion of this spiritual belief that divides people based on blood ties?
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Bells
Staff member
Where did I say it was alright to mock other people's religious beliefs?
I say it is acceptable to question it. But mock? No.
Now I would like to throw that question right back to you. How is it somehow acceptable to demand reverant respect for your religious beliefs, when you refuse to accept the spiritual beliefs of native people's?
But now this..
Whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant.
Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant.
It is not my culture or my heritage or history, so I really have no place to demand they alter a connection they feel is spiritual and that goes back hundreds and hundreds of years, that they have to each other and to those they adopt as Maori, because I disagree with it or think it might be racist.
It is a part of their personal identity.
I am an outsider. As are you. It is not our place to storm the front and tell them it is delusional or irrelevant. It is relevant to them. It existed prior to European settlement and that connection or the belief in that connection, continues today.
I really can't understand how you, of all people, can dismiss a part of a people's culture so easily and demand they simply get rid of it because you feel it is delusional and irrelevant.
Let me give you an example. Lets look at the bur'qa issue in France. Do you accept that it is acceptable for France to dismiss the bur'qa and ban it?
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Do you see me asking anyone to respect my religion anymore? The reverse, I tell everyone who is new to expect to be abused here regardless of how it feels to them or how it personally affects them.
I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of all the men of science who question anything unscientific to the point of verbal abuse and who denigrate womens clothing and the beliefs of 80% of humanity now suddenly standing up for racism, because its Trippy
Do you see the difference of fighting between the right of a woman to choose her clothing and dismissing the Maoris as a "culture of stunning success" because they have a history of alcoholism, domestic violence and drug abuse? When we're discussing their suicide rates????
I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of all the men of science who question anything unscientific to the point of verbal abuse and who denigrate womens clothing and the beliefs of 80% of humanity now suddenly standing up for racism, because its Trippy
Do you see the difference of fighting between the right of a woman to choose her clothing and dismissing the Maoris as a "culture of stunning success" because they have a history of alcoholism, domestic violence and drug abuse? When we're discussing their suicide rates????
Bells
Staff member
I respect that it is an internal issue that needs to be fixed internally.Sam said:
How do you think Indians would feel if the West came riding in demanding its complete removal?
Whether I agree with it or not is beside the point. It is not my place to ride in like an imperialistic twit and tell them that it is irrelevant and delusional.
Now, let me ask you a question. How is the caste system similar to family ties in New Zealand? In New Zealand, it does not discriminate against anyone. It does not make anyone better than the other. It is to them a spiritual connection to their ancestors.
Bells
Staff member
I have never once abused you for your religious beliefs. So don't you dare lump me in with those that do. I have always defended your right to your religious beliefs on this forum.
Bullshit.
They are not standing up because it is Trippy. They are standing up because they see you, hypocritically ranting about racism against Maori's, all while denying a Maori the right to a voice.
I have never once abused you for your religious beliefs. So don't you dare lump me in with those that do. I have always defended your right to your religious beliefs on this forum.
Bullshit.
They are not standing up because it is Trippy. They are standing up because they see you, hypocritically ranting about racism against Maori's, all while denying a Maori the right to a voice.
Well bells you are not beyond thanking God yourself that you are an atheist because of the evils of theism, so don't give me that BS.
And I have never, not once seen you or any other moderator step in and tell off anyone who is abusing Lori or sandy or even for heavens sakes kids like Shadow and princelove who sign up from places where they don't even speak English as a first language, when the hyena hordes descend on them for simply stating their religious belief.
But Trippy who is a Maori who does not identify as a Maori who is not a Europeanised Maori who dismisses what was done to Maoris, wow he sure needs all this firepower betod hith pheeling ith tho hurted when his opinions on the failed culture of the Maoris is not taken seriously even though he has a whakapapa to Pocahontas. :bawl:
I'll admit I missed that. Good on you for keeping some level of civility in the discussion. Thanks. Thats probably the only times Lori has been allowed to have her say without being recommended mental hospitalisation.
Bells
Staff member
So you would accept Western countries stepping in and abolishing it?
Yes or no?
Is my being an atheist stopping you from being a theist?
Is my apparently thanking God for being an atheist
rolleyes, denying you your right to your own religious beliefs? Does it infringe upon your personal religious beliefs? Probably because I stopped inhabiting the religious forums a long time ago. Around the time where you started accusing me of being a bad parent for being an atheist, remember those lovely times Sam?
He identifies himself as a Kiwi. Which has already been explained to you. Many times. I refuse to believe that you are that dim-witted that it needs to be explained to you again..
He does not dismiss what was done to Maori's. He openly accepts it. I'm sorry, is he expected to run screaming into the streets tearing at his clothes?
But you know what's the kicker, because he's not acting Maori enough for you, you refuse to allow him to have a voice about his culture and his people, all while ranting about how much the Europeans took away from Maori's.. And then, to top it off, you call a large portion of Maori culture delusional and irrelevant.
Hmm..
And now, you belittle and demean that culture even more.
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