Ancient astronaut theory looks highly promising now

[Captain Kremmen]

...............and then tell me these rocks were cut with a Copper Hammer and Chisel.

Why believe that their tools were primitive?
Who is saying they could do that with a hammer and chisel?
It's clear that they had very good tools.

Here's some ideas from the Victorian Egyptologist Petrie.
http://www.touregypt.net/petrie/c19.htm

 

[Lakon]

"Difficult to believe" is not an argument. In fact, it's a logical fallacy called "argument from incredulity". The artisans of Egypt were experts in their craft because the ruling class was very, very rich and obsessed with building tombs.

Yes, I agree. Still, I wasn't offering it as any substantial argument. I was simply saying it is difficult to believe (for me) that it was all done with primative tools. Captain Kremmens post #101 takes the issue closer to the truth, although I still think there was much more to it than that. But it's just my opinion.

 

[kwhilborn]

@ Captain Kremmen,

The link you provided does label the technology more in sync with what I have been saying. I am not sure this is the accepted views of all, and if you would strike a lively debate if you claimed Egyptions used Diamond edged Rotary Saws and Drills, and had Lathes.

The material of these cutting points is yet undetermined ; but only five substances are possible: beryl, topaz, chrysoberyl, corundum or sapphire, and diamond. The character of the work would certainly seem to point to diamond as being the cutting jewel; and only the considerations of its rarity in general, and its absence from Egypt, interfere with this conclusion,

That the Egyptians were acquainted with a cutting jewel far harder than quartz, and that they used this jewel as a sharp-pointed graver, is put beyond doubt by the diorite bowls with inscriptions of the fourth dynasty, of which I found fragments at Gizeh. These hieroglyphs are incised, with a very free-cutting point; they are not scraped nor ground out, but are ploughed through the diorite, with rough edges to the line. As the lines are only 1/150 inch wide (the figures being about .2 long), it is evident that the cutting point must have been p 174 much harder than quartz; and tough enough not to splinter when so fine an edge was being employed, probably only 1/200 inch wide. Parallel lines are graved only 1/30 inch apart from centre to centre.

and the lathe appears to have been as familiar an instrument in the fourth dynasty, as it is in modern workshops. The diorite bowls and vases of the Old Kingdom are frequently met with, and show great technical skill. One piece found at Gizeh, No.14, shows that the method employed was true turning, and not any process of grinding, since the bowl has been knocked off of its centring, recentred imperfectly, and the old turning not quite turned out; thus there are two surfaces belonging to different centrings, and meeting in a cusp. Such an appearance could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface

Read more: http://www.touregypt.net/petrie/c19.htm#ixzz2W9ORjUIN

Thank you for the link.

His conclusions are 100 years old now. I think Christopher Dunn has taken the understandings further.

 

[kwhilborn]

Also....

I had sent a private mail to Lakon who could not access the videos I had posted.

He suggested I copy/Paste my mail to him here, so here it is.

Christopher Dunn Pyramids.

Christopher Dunn has several books and a Giza Power Website.
http://www.gizapower.com/

But nothing in my life has ever made me really think the Pyramids were solved until The video(s) I posted. That was number 4 in a series of 9 videos. This guy is a world class Engineer and has reverse Engineered the pyramids.

One thing that I never knew was that there was found to be a strong Chemical odour in the Queens Chamber. They also found salt up to an inch thick, and gypsum was leaking out of the limestone.

It turns out that this was explainable. The two Air Shafts were a combination of something like Hydrochloric Acid and Magnesium in opposite shafts. These were not air shafts at all, but contained these chemicals. This accounted for the smell, The salt, and the Gypsum. Later robot exploration
http://gizapower.com/Anotherrobot.htm
found electrodes at the top of the shaft. They drilled past these electrodes and found a wiring diagram on the other side in red lettering.

Now a chemical tube made this way would require head pressure and accounts for the elevation and electrodes.

The Queens Chamber was really a reaction chamber where Hydrogen was created to permeate the entire structure.

It sounds better and more thorough when told by an Engineer like Christopher Dunn as little details support this throughout.

The shafts that go outdoors from the "kings Chamber" are of varying widths. One of which is the wavelength of a microwave. The use of the frequencies generated in the harmonic chamber (grand hall) seem somewhat of a mystery to us, but he feels it was a part of this energy process.

In keeping with the Hydrogen theory there was evidence iof a massive explosion in the Kings Chamber at one time that moved the walls almost 1 inch. Historians say it was likely an earthquake and yet the tunnel going underneath the pyramid was not moved more than a thickness of a thumbnail. How could only the inside of the pyramid move, etc.

It is definately a good book and a great video series. If you have keen interest I suggest watching from video 1. He is slow at getting to points sometimes, but well worth the side stories.

 

[AlexG]

His conclusions are 100 years old now.

That doesn't change either the technology or the tools of the ancient Egyptians which he was examining.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

@ Captain Kremmen,

The link you provided does label the technology more in sync with what I have been saying. I am not sure this is the accepted views of all, and if you would strike a lively debate if you claimed Egyptions used Diamond edged Rotary Saws and Drills, and had Lathes.

Read more: http://www.touregypt.net/petrie/c19.htm#ixzz2W9ORjUIN

Thank you for the link.

His conclusions are 100 years old now. I think Christopher Dunn has taken the understandings further.

Oh, I'm sure many of the ideas have changed.
If there were diamond tipped tools, I suppose they would have been found by now.
But something is missing. (Not aliens I think)

I do like Petrie's writing style.
I'll try to find something by him in book form.

 

[kwhilborn]

@ Captain Kremmen,
The title of this thread (ancient Astronauts), nor I have suggested Aliens have ever visited us. I do think that over millions of years of life on this planet there can be a POSSIBILITY that some cultures had attained a certain amount of technology possibly along different paths and possibly in some areas superior to ours. I also am not saying that it was the Egyptian culture.

According to history however Sumerians taught that Aliens had come to show then things. This could merely be people from somewhere else on the planet with some technology.

I have more questions than answers, but it appears there are many holes in our history that last millions of years. I think it is interesting.

@ Captain Kremmen still,
It is your link that suggested they had Lathes and Diamond tipped Drills and saws. Would such devices last 5000 years? We must also consider that the Pyramids and Ancient Egypt was as old to King Tut as the Roman Ruins are to us today, and it appears they "lost" some of their skills during this time.

An odd idea:
I have often thought the Egyptians learned to manipulate matter somewhat with sound. The way they carved such intricate bowls with pure Granite seems almost impossible for their age, or even our age.

I am not Endorsing Walter Russell and my education currently does not allow me to fully understand all of Walter Russells Theories.
Walter Russell was friends with Nicola Tesla and Einstein who developed a unified theory based upon sound. There are many supporters of this type of thinking around. Is our periodic table built upon Octaves?

Now let's rewind 5000+ years to the Sumerian culture which was one of the earliest civilizations we know well through their vast amounts of writing. This culture was rich with Math and could calculate the space inside a sphere. They had Abacus like calculators. They had Astronomy, Astrology, a detailed fair justice system, The wheel, Sails, heavy literature like poems, fiction and manuals. They seemed very intelligent.
However these people also had a Unified Theory concerning Physics that was ALSO based upon sound.

Walter Russell in the 20th century and The Sumerians 5000 years ago both have unified theories about the Universe based upon sound.

I am NOT ENDORSING this way of thought, but it does have me interested enough to be learning more, and I am reading books by Walter Russell presently.

Wikipedia

Walter Russell (May 19, 1871 – May 19, 1963) was a controversial figure in physics and cosmogony. He posited that the universe was founded on the unifying principle of rhythmic balanced interchange. Although a number of his books have been published, few of his claims have been verified by mainstream academics.

One fact Skeptics would choke on if they perused any of his work however is he does believe all knowledge is already inside us through God, and we must only look inside ourselves to find it.

Here is a quote(s),

"I have found out that the real essentials of greatness in men are not written in books, nor can they be found in the schools, They are written into the inner consciousness of everyone who intensely searches for perfection in creative achievement and are understandable to such men only."
"Successful men of all the ages have learned to multiply themselves by gathering thought energy into a high potential and using it in the direction of the purpose intended. Every successful man or great genius has three particular qualities in common. The most conspicuous of these is that their minds grow more brilliant as they grow older, instead of less brilliant. Great men’s lives begin at forty, where the mediocre man’s life ends. The genius remains an ever-flowing fountain of creative achievement until the very last breath he draws. The geniuses have learned how to gather thought energy together to use for transforming their conceptions into material forms. The thinking of creative and successful men is never exerted in any direction other that that intended. That is why great men produce a prodigious amount of work, seemingly without effort and without fatigue. The amount of work such men leave to posterity is amazing. When one considers such men of our times as Edison, Henry Ford or Theodore Roosevelt, one will find the three characteristics I have mentioned common to every one of them.

What would the implications of this theory be if true though.

Can some sort of tone/wave alter an objects weight. Edward Leeskalin the 5 foot man who moved 30 ton rocks to build corral castle said he knew the secrets of the pyramids, and his description of electricity was like a corkscrew with electrons (tiny magnets he says) travelling in both directions.

Leedskalins view of how Electricity travels

Yes he does use a block and tackle, but he also built a huge rock fortress TWICE with stones weighing up to 30 tons under the eyes of spying neighbors. He claimed to know the secret of the pyramids. One guy transporting the rocks on a truck said he would drop off the truck and Ed would load it himself and had at one time gone back shortly after and several boulder sized rocks were already stacked on it.

More Walter Russell diagrams.... his books are free online mostly.

http://butdoesitfloat.com/The-secret-of-creation-lies-in-the-wave

I could write books on this subject...

I Believe there is something fundamental we are missing that was understood by Ancient Societies. I think it has to do with harmonics.

Ed Leedskalin left a plaque above his bed that said,
THE SECRET TO THE UNIVERSE IS 7129 / 6105195.

fun link about..
http://www.conspiracy.co/forums/amateur-articles/145-coral-castle-mystery-solved.html

[video=youtube;xbwmTEAHwSw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xbwmTEAHwSw[/video]

ANYONE INTERESTED IN MAGNETISM OR Electricity should read leedskalin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=832qz3s1M-s

In above video a guy builds Leedskalins Perpetual Motion Holder and it still goes strong after 2 years..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o15_DQUm94s

People write off his feats because of the Block and Tackle but this 100lb guy moved over 1100 tons of rock into place and then moved it all 30 miles and rebuilt it. His magnet designs have baffled/impressed experts.

HERE IS A BOOK BY ED LEESKALIN. IT IS A SMALL BOOK AND COULD BE READ IN A FEW HOURS, BUT IS VERY INTERESTING ALTHOUGH ODD. (he suggests you face diferent directions when you read experiment , etc..

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Magnets/Leedskalnin/Magnetic-Current_Edward-Leedskalnin_51pp.pdf

There are hundreds of videos n youtube about Ed Leedskalin and his Magnetic inventions being verified by everyone who tries what is written in above linked onlne book.

example...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wItXxuEf2zo
[video=youtube;wItXxuEf2zo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wItXxuEf2zo[/video]

fun stuff.. Edward Leedskalin Built an 1100 ton castle by himself twice AND wrote a book about magnets that seems to impress all. He claims EVERYTHING IS MADE OF MAGNETS. He claims he knows how the pyramids were built.

He never charged more than 10 cents to visit his castle.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Would they last 5,000 years?
Diamonds are forever aren't they?

I wonder if it was possible to break harder stone or gems into powder.
Then saws could have been improved by coating their teeth with paste.
The evidence would dry, and blow away.
There's no way the block in the picture you showed was done with a hammer and chisel.

Russell's blackboard is beautifully drawn.
I'll have a look at the content later.
Thanks.

 

[AlexG]

Would they last 5,000 years?
Diamonds are forever aren't they?

Well the tools the diamonds are mounted on are most likely wooden, so they wouldn't last. And the diamonds aren't the Cullinan diamond (1.33 pounds), they'd be small diamond chips.

 

[kwhilborn]

@ AlexG,
The saws they were mounted on were known to be Bronze (not wood) based upon the green bronze found in the sides of the cut and surrounding materials. I did not post the Entire link by Captain Kremmen, but it was discussed in detail.

also

but only five substances are possible: beryl, topaz, chrysoberyl, corundum or sapphire, and diamond. The character of the work would certainly seem to point to diamond as being the cutting jewel;

I could see any of the above materials being recycled as the surrounding parts might wear out before them. We do recycle diamonds from bits today. They can also dislodge and get lost.

I supose maybe one day a partially drilled hole might produce one of the above jewels... But will it be reported? Hmmm.

Bronze should last, but how many saws and drills were in use? They do not sound as if they were a home use device and likely needed mechanical power from giant hampsters or the like.

It is possible they were melted and used to cast King tuts baby shoes in a permanent statue.

I have seen Papyrus showing Egyptians using Bows to power smaller drills in the same fashion you would start a fire.

 

[AlexG]

I supose maybe one day a partially drilled hole might produce one of the above jewels... But will it be reported? Hmmm.

I'd imagine it would be. It would be a big thing in Egyptology.

The saws they were mounted on were known to be Bronze (not wood) based upon the green bronze found in the sides of the cut and surrounding materials

Have the ever found one of the bronze saws?

 

[kwhilborn]

@ Alexg,

From Flinders Petrie (link from Captain Kremmen / link below quotes).

134 . That no remains of these saws or tubular drills have yet been found is to be expected, since we have not yet found even waste specimens of work to a tenth of the amount that a single tool would produce ; and the tools, instead of being thrown away like the waste, would be most carefully guarded. Again, even of common masons' chisels, there are probably not a dozen known; and yet they would be far commoner than jewelled tools, and also more likely to be lost, or to be buried with the workman. The great saws and drills of the Pyramid workers would be royal property, and it would, perhaps, cost a man his life if he lost one ; while the bronze would be remelted, and the jewels reset, when the tools became worn, so that no worn out tools would be thrown away.

from paragraph 129 same paper..

That the blades of the saws were of bronze, we know from the green staining on the sides of saw cuts, and on grains of sand left in a saw cut.
The forms of the tools were straight saws, circular saws, tubular drills, and lathes.

Read more: http://www.touregypt.net/petrie/c19.htm#ixzz2WENBQWMf

 

[Captain Kremmen]

@Kwhill
The drill holes. They are perfect.
If you used a modern electric drill you would find it difficult to make such perfect holes in stone.

 

[AlexG]

And I would expect that if we haven't found the tools, it would stand to reason that we wouldn't have found the diamond the tools were tipped with.

 

[kwhilborn]

@ Alexg,
Yes. But if we knew what to look for it is possible they may find a bit of broken saw or bit inside a discarded stone. Maybe...
Eventually.

Yes Captain Kremmen,

I find the Egyptians are not given their due in some areas. I also think there is something fundamental that we are missing that they clued in on based on what is evident and also from other alternate Historians like Christopher Dunn whom I have lauded over this thread.

When asked what I wanted for my Birthday last year it was the second book by this man.

I started being convinced of his theory of The pyramid as a working Machine around 28 minutes into this video...
[video=youtube;E1Zg_UFKptM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Zg_UFKptM[/video]

However anybody interested in Ancient Egypt should watch it all.

Christopher Dunn is a Modern Day Aerospace Engineer/Scientist, and he looked at everything the same way Petrie did, but did not start with any forgone conclusions.

We have ALWAYS said these were used for burials, but there is no tomb markings or bodies ever discovered in any of them. Why do we have conclusions with no evidence.. LOOK at the evidence first and then use reason.. Not so hard.

"I began to see the drawings of the Great Pyramid, with its numerous chambers and passageways positioned with such deliberate accuracy, as the schematics of a very large machine. I became convinced that it could not be anything else, and I set about trying to understand how this machine operated. The effort could be considered similar to what is known as the process of reverse engineering. To be successful at this, I knew that I had to find an answer for every single detail found within the Great Pyramid. I could not ignore any evidence or twist it in any way. I was determined to prepare a report that was accurate and as honest as I was capable of making it."

On page123 paragraph 2, I state:

"In proposing my theory that the Great pyramid is a power plant, I am not adamantly adhering to any one proposition. The possibilities may be numerous."

On page 255 paragraph 2, I state:

"My theory is that the Great Pyramid was the ancient Egyptians' power plant. However radical the idea may seem, it is, in my mind, supported by hard archaeological evidence. The artifacts reveal that the ancient Egyptians used advanced machining methods, which supports the deduction that their civilization, and perhaps others, was technologically advanced. Nevertheless, even with the powerful evidence I have presented throughout this book, and the growing support for such ideas, there is still a mountain of evidence - or lack of it - that prevents this theory's total acceptance. I acknowledge this truth, and I am open to revising my power plant theory if another theory presents itself to explain all the anomalies in the ancient artifacts and pyramids I have examined

From Gizapower,com

Supporting the idea that a chemical reaction took place in the Queen's Chamber, (and before the discovery of Gantenbrink's "door") my hypothesis relied on the evidence discovered in the chamber by early explorers as follows:

The rough, unfinished floor inside the Queen's Chamber.

The corbeled niche cut into the east wall of the Queen's Chamber.

The repugnant odor that assailed early explorers.

Drop in Horizontal Passage floor level before it goes into the Queen's Chamber. This would allow chemicals to pool inside the chamber and "wick" up the evaporation tower.

Corbeled niche in wall of the Queen's Chamber. This may have been a means to key the evaporation tower into the structure.

Shafts leading to the Queen's Chamber but not quite connected to it. These could have been supply shafts for chemicals needed in the reaction. The shafts would allow chemicals to enter the chamber and prevent evolving gases from escaping.

Stone ball, grapnel hook, and cedar like wood. The wood and hook assembly could have served as a floating contact to signal the need for more chemical. The stone ball may have been used to prevent erosion of the "left" as the channel filled with fluid. (I am not adverse to the idea that these items were introduced at a later time, but offer this as a reason for their presence assuming they are contemporaneous with the building.)

Flakes of gypsum exuding from joints in shafts. This substance probably resulted from the chemical reacting with limestone (suggesting the use of hydrochloric acid).

Buildup of salt crystals on the walls and ceiling of the Queen's Chamber, Horizontal Passage, and lower level of Grand Gallery. This buildup was likely the result of gaseous vapor passing over the limestone, reacting with the calcium in the limestone, and giving up water and impurities. This was a by-product from the drying of the gas.

Well Shaft bored from the juncture of the Grand Gallery and the Horizontal Passage down to the Grotto. This was probably either a waste removal shaft or an overflow shaft.

Large granite block at the bottom of the Well Shaft at the level of the Grotto. Most likely this was put into place to catch the chemical overflow, thereby preventing erosion of the limestone.




The strongest argument to support the use of a fluid in the shafts is that they were not connected with the chamber. They terminated just five-inches away from the inside wall. At the time I was researching this part of the book, I was living in Indiana, which is famous for its limestone quarries. I had bought some property out in the country and was putting in a septic system. This led to an in depth discussion with a civil engineer about the standards and calculations used when putting in a septic system and seep field. I was particularly fascinated when a percolation test was run on my property. It was a simple test that involved time and volume of liquid. A hole is dug, water is poured into it and time is taken for the water to disappear from the hole.

I asked the civil engineer if he had ever performed a percolation test in the limestone bedrock. He said yes and that the principle is still the same. The square footage required for a septic system is calculated from the percolation results, whether the hole is dug into limestone, clay or regular soil. From my discussions with him, I learned that air would not pass through that five-inch plate of limestone that separated the Queen's Chamber from the Shafts, but a liquid would. I also learned that the percolation rate would be precise as long as the head pressure, which is determined by the weight of the column of liquid, remained the same.

Because other evidence in the Great Pyramid suggested hydrogen as a gas, I consulted with a chemical engineer to find out what chemicals, when brought together, would produce hydrogen gas. I was told that diluted hydrochloric acid coming in from one shaft and hydrated zinc feeding in from the other when combined would produced hydrogen. Joe Drejewski, my consultant, also affirmed that the boiling off of hydrogen when the chemicals mixed would create salts on the limestone (calcium carbonate) walls and ceiling of the chamber.

etc., etc., etc.

pics
http://www.delange.org/Inside_Khufu/EP3-2-2.htm

 

[Lakon]

Kwhilborn, I share your enthusiasm in thinking about what ancient humans might have been capable of, and I'm reading your material with interest.

Just one note for now, earlier you said ..

An odd idea:
I have often thought the Egyptians learned to manipulate matter somewhat with sound. The way they carved such intricate bowls with pure Granite seems almost impossible for their age, or even our age.

Odd or not, this has fascinated me too over the years and I've seen some very interesting stuff on it. I'll see if I can put something together and start a new thread on this in the next day or so.

 

[garbonzo]

Kwilborn, have you posted the contents of this post in this thread yet?

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...t-astronauts&p=3078167&viewfull=1#post3078167

Lakon also posted links to these ancient Indian flying machines which are quite intriguing:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/esp_vimanas_9.htm
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=a...v&sa=X&ei=XcW3UfDXBcSfiAektoDACA&ved=0CDkQsAQ

I found another thing related to his links:

This is the best evidence in these glyphs for me. It looks perfectly like a helicopter, and I doubt there is anything else that can quite fit the bill. But of course, it's open to discussion.

Next:

Could be a submarine, but perhaps less convincing.

Note that these are all on the same wall as his links. Not only do these resemble modern marvels, but they are also all together. In other words, if you accept one, such as the helicopter, resembling it's modern counterpart, then it adds much more weight to these others being their counterparts (modern or future) as well.

Now I know that it may seem odd that ETs would be using modern technology such as the helicopter. If our science fiction is to be believed, you would think in even 100 years we would have better flying machines, like true anti-gravity or something, I dunno, but there is just no room to doubt that these look like their counterparts, you know? We can't even rule out time travel. I know mainstream science currently shows no evidence of even theoretically going back in time, but perhaps it is possible, perhaps some random person got thrown back to this time and decided to draw what he could remember of his time, who knows. This is, of course, while speculation. We have evidence of these things happening, being drawn, or made, but we can't truly have a theory to piece them together that is any better than the rest.

Oh, there was one thing I was reading that was pretty convincing, but I forget what it was to look up, but I believe it was Indian culture that had a drawing that looked oddly similar to a modern design for a sort of energy plant I think it was. Obviously, I'm not trying to add any evidence here, but asking if maybe anyone has come across something like that and knows what I mean.

 

[garbonzo]

This is a great summary of the ancient Bolivian sites guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8JX-GhlLmg

 

[river]

Baalbek in Lebanon interesting problem without sufficient lifting power and the ability to maneuver such massive , enormous blocks of stone leaves one to wonder , how

 

[Lakon]

Baalbek in Lebanon interesting problem without sufficient lifting power and the ability to maneuver such massive , enormous blocks of stone leaves one to wonder , how

Indeed. It does not follow, however, that it was aliens. Never underestimate the human potential - present or past times.

Years ago I read a lot about sound harmonics and the moving of physical matter thereof. Very interesting stuff.