Robert Schunk
Registered Senior Member
I must begin by admitting that this is a re-presentation of a discussion conducted on another forum, but it may be interesting to you (and, if not, just stop reading it when you don't like it anymore!):
My original post:
I'm also delving into the history of the hippie movement, which most trace back to Germany, with some being so bold as to specify the precise year of 1896. Like the Italian criminal syndicates, the movement came to the US via immigration of its participants (particularly to Southern California). Although their movement didn't really take root among native-born Americans in Southern California, there was a group of beatniks from the North Beach district of San Francisco who, around 1960, observed this culture and became enthusiastic advocates of its emulation amongst the North Beach beatniks. This precipitated a split within the North Beach community, which resulted in those favoring emulation of the Southern California German culture migrating away from North Beach and taking over the moribund commercial core of the old working-class neighborhood of Haight-Ashbury. The remaining North Beach beatniks referred to the Haight-Ashbury beatniks as "hippies", which was a pejorative term for beatnik wannabes who didn't really "get it".
>
> The critical point related to my inquiry is that, although cultural continuity between the Southern California German culture and the Haight-Ashbury hippie culture is unambiguously attested, there is no evidence of any personnel transfer between these two cultures, as opposed to the fact of the founders of the American Mafia having originally been made back in Italy.
>
> My key question is this: can I claim that the hippie culture is truly a continuation of the Southern California German culture given the complete absence of continuity or transfer of personnel from one culture to the other?
>
Here's a follow-up post of mine:
My knowledge of the Wandervogel movement is increasing dramatically, and it appears that the leaders of this movement were not quite as idealistic as their followers.
It appears that one of the primary organizational tenants of the Wandervogel movement, and one of its chief recruitment lures, involved acceptance and glorification of homosexuality. (Mind you, I'm thoroughly of the opinion that activity between consenting adults in the privacy of one's home is one's own business, but the Wandervogel movement apparently went way beyond this concept.) This makes no surprise of the fact that the leader of the North Beach hipsters who latched on to the American version of Wandervogel culture was none other than the openly gay Beat poet Alan Ginsberg. As homosexuality apparently didn't have quite the drawing power in the US that it had in Germany, they substituted the allure of the potential of "mind expansion" through the use of psycedelic drugs in order to recruit members.
Still, it's an interesting question as to whether pure influence in the absence of personnel continuity or transfer constitutes cultural continuity.
***
Here's my third post on the subject:
I'm going to call it. Seeing as the Wandervogel moovement had to change, not only its activities (psychedelic drugs as opposed to homosexuality), and ideology (there was no inconsistency between being a Wandervogel and being a Nazi (a la Ernst Roehm), whereas Naziism would have been abhorrent to American hippies) in order to appeal to American youth, there is clearly a break in continuity of influence between the two movements to mark them as separate.
***
Here's my fourth:
I'm just here trying to conclude my thread concerning the question of pure influence in the absence of personnel continuity as evidence of continuity of a social movement, in that there was no documented personnel transfer between the culture of Southern California German-American farmers and the Northern California native-born imitators of that culture. Nevertheless, said Norther California imitators offered a few songs in homage to the Southern California farmers, which I find quite touching.
The first song is Jefferson Airplane doing "High Flyin'Bird" with the amazing Signe Toly Anderson (as opposed to that horrid witch who succeeded her) doing the lead vocals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M51VZDQIqJc
The second is "Nature Boy" by Great Society, whose lead vocalist, unfortunately, just happens to be the horrid witch who succeeded Signe as the lead singer of Jefferson Airplane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et0LLAdBpLM
Any opinions???
***
Here's a response from Responder #2:
Looks like you have strong feelings about Grace Slick. Have to admit that you are right about Signe Anderson being a far better singer. Have to admire her for putting her child first.
As for your off-topic topic, I agree that there's no continuity in personnel from the early Bohemians to the Wandervogel to beatniks to hippies, but that's the train of influence. There were also personalities who influenced the movement. You could probably trace it back to the early British deists to the Kant and others to the French Revolution to the Romantics (Lord Byron, Mary Shelley, etc) to the Bohemians, etc. eventually to Allen Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac. There's also a lot of influence from the Frankfurt School and New Left ideology. Not necessarily a straight line as it zigs and zags.
***
Here's my counter-resonse to Resonder #2:
Actually, the earliest parallel would be the ancient Greek philosophical school under Diogenes known as the Cynics. During the early days of the Roman Empire, two opposing youth movements came into existence: those who supported the Empire, in which both the boys and the girls wore colorful, full-length robes and long, loose hair, and lived a celebratory lifestyle, while those who opposed the Empire in favor of restoring the Republic adopted a more reserved appearance and lifestyle with the boys affecting a military appearance (high-and-tight hair, short tunic), and the girls dressing like widows in mourning over the loss of the Republic.
While the imperialist youth appear to be a parallel with the hippies, the republicans would have, as their closest modern parallel, the Ron Paul/9-11 Truth crowd. It's interesting that, whenever Truthers gather, most are wearing black t-shirts, somewhat reminiscent of the widow's weeds worn by Republican girls.
My original post:
I'm also delving into the history of the hippie movement, which most trace back to Germany, with some being so bold as to specify the precise year of 1896. Like the Italian criminal syndicates, the movement came to the US via immigration of its participants (particularly to Southern California). Although their movement didn't really take root among native-born Americans in Southern California, there was a group of beatniks from the North Beach district of San Francisco who, around 1960, observed this culture and became enthusiastic advocates of its emulation amongst the North Beach beatniks. This precipitated a split within the North Beach community, which resulted in those favoring emulation of the Southern California German culture migrating away from North Beach and taking over the moribund commercial core of the old working-class neighborhood of Haight-Ashbury. The remaining North Beach beatniks referred to the Haight-Ashbury beatniks as "hippies", which was a pejorative term for beatnik wannabes who didn't really "get it".
>
> The critical point related to my inquiry is that, although cultural continuity between the Southern California German culture and the Haight-Ashbury hippie culture is unambiguously attested, there is no evidence of any personnel transfer between these two cultures, as opposed to the fact of the founders of the American Mafia having originally been made back in Italy.
>
> My key question is this: can I claim that the hippie culture is truly a continuation of the Southern California German culture given the complete absence of continuity or transfer of personnel from one culture to the other?
>
Here's a follow-up post of mine:
My knowledge of the Wandervogel movement is increasing dramatically, and it appears that the leaders of this movement were not quite as idealistic as their followers.
It appears that one of the primary organizational tenants of the Wandervogel movement, and one of its chief recruitment lures, involved acceptance and glorification of homosexuality. (Mind you, I'm thoroughly of the opinion that activity between consenting adults in the privacy of one's home is one's own business, but the Wandervogel movement apparently went way beyond this concept.) This makes no surprise of the fact that the leader of the North Beach hipsters who latched on to the American version of Wandervogel culture was none other than the openly gay Beat poet Alan Ginsberg. As homosexuality apparently didn't have quite the drawing power in the US that it had in Germany, they substituted the allure of the potential of "mind expansion" through the use of psycedelic drugs in order to recruit members.
Still, it's an interesting question as to whether pure influence in the absence of personnel continuity or transfer constitutes cultural continuity.
***
Here's my third post on the subject:
I'm going to call it. Seeing as the Wandervogel moovement had to change, not only its activities (psychedelic drugs as opposed to homosexuality), and ideology (there was no inconsistency between being a Wandervogel and being a Nazi (a la Ernst Roehm), whereas Naziism would have been abhorrent to American hippies) in order to appeal to American youth, there is clearly a break in continuity of influence between the two movements to mark them as separate.
***
Here's my fourth:
I'm just here trying to conclude my thread concerning the question of pure influence in the absence of personnel continuity as evidence of continuity of a social movement, in that there was no documented personnel transfer between the culture of Southern California German-American farmers and the Northern California native-born imitators of that culture. Nevertheless, said Norther California imitators offered a few songs in homage to the Southern California farmers, which I find quite touching.
The first song is Jefferson Airplane doing "High Flyin'Bird" with the amazing Signe Toly Anderson (as opposed to that horrid witch who succeeded her) doing the lead vocals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M51VZDQIqJc
The second is "Nature Boy" by Great Society, whose lead vocalist, unfortunately, just happens to be the horrid witch who succeeded Signe as the lead singer of Jefferson Airplane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et0LLAdBpLM
Any opinions???
***
Here's a response from Responder #2:
Looks like you have strong feelings about Grace Slick. Have to admit that you are right about Signe Anderson being a far better singer. Have to admire her for putting her child first.
As for your off-topic topic, I agree that there's no continuity in personnel from the early Bohemians to the Wandervogel to beatniks to hippies, but that's the train of influence. There were also personalities who influenced the movement. You could probably trace it back to the early British deists to the Kant and others to the French Revolution to the Romantics (Lord Byron, Mary Shelley, etc) to the Bohemians, etc. eventually to Allen Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac. There's also a lot of influence from the Frankfurt School and New Left ideology. Not necessarily a straight line as it zigs and zags.
***
Here's my counter-resonse to Resonder #2:
Actually, the earliest parallel would be the ancient Greek philosophical school under Diogenes known as the Cynics. During the early days of the Roman Empire, two opposing youth movements came into existence: those who supported the Empire, in which both the boys and the girls wore colorful, full-length robes and long, loose hair, and lived a celebratory lifestyle, while those who opposed the Empire in favor of restoring the Republic adopted a more reserved appearance and lifestyle with the boys affecting a military appearance (high-and-tight hair, short tunic), and the girls dressing like widows in mourning over the loss of the Republic.
While the imperialist youth appear to be a parallel with the hippies, the republicans would have, as their closest modern parallel, the Ron Paul/9-11 Truth crowd. It's interesting that, whenever Truthers gather, most are wearing black t-shirts, somewhat reminiscent of the widow's weeds worn by Republican girls.
