An Aside Regarding Homosexuality

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Balerion, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    As far as I recall, the figures are from american studies and yes, you are right, the percentage undecided drops rapidly as gonadrache is approached. As to damage, one of the things identified as damaging was use of language such as husband and wife when discussing 'adult partnerships' as it introduces expectation and bias.
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  3. Balerion Banned Banned

    Do they? In what way? Could you give an example?

    Pretending that the concept is so flexible it has no meaning only serves to kill the discussion.

    Actually, she does. And that's coming from me.

    Your idea of "conversation" is chucking illogic grenades from behind a bush. Try participating.

    I don't know what "power telling" means, but if you don't like the nature of debate, then why are you here? Oh, right, to add such gems as this:

    Teasing, baiting, adding nothing beside petty resentment and a superiority complex. Not to mention the :shrug: and

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    emoticons you're so fond of. It begs the question: What are you doing here, wynn?

    How about any detail? How about instead of just criticizing others, you actually support your criticisms with a competing idea?

    How, exactly, are homosexuals harming themselves? You list a "common problem" below, so what's the "uncommon" one you feel the need to single gay people out for?

    How is sex objectification? In typical fashion, you've made a claim without supporting it. Pretend I'm an idiot and explain to me exactly how sex equates to objectification.

    I can't fathom how you, of all people, could possibly get upset by someone talking down to someone else. 95% of your posts are blatantly condescending.

    And, from what I can tell, no one is actually talking down to Syne. This is just another one of your victim tactics.
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  5. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    That's... pretty fucked up, as if you can't have sex with someone without turning them into an object? If it weren't pleasurable no one would do it. Can't I have pleasure eating a meal with someone without objectifying them into a "food object"? What are you talking about?
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  7. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Since when does a good excuse pardon actual harm? No, not the "gayness", just "men who have sex with men", according to the CDC.

    Who said it did not? But you seem to have missed that I said "in my moral judgment" as opposed to simply a personal preference.

    That is a hasty generalization that cannot be proven anything else. Even having a very great number of such anecdotal histories does not make it a foregone conclusion.

    And I just said, "if I so choose". And it is a matter of "what they do", not "who they are".

    But you think it is right to judge someone solely for their opinion, whether that opinion causes any direct harm or not?

    Do the excuses for harmful behavior pardon it? Oh, you have an excuse...well it is okay that you or others have been harmed then.

    Passing the blame can lead to an infinite regress that only ends with no one to blame. If the social environment is at fault, then the individual you blame within that society is no less effected by it, and at best, you have only the mechanisms of social evolution to blame.

    Not in the US, according to the CDC:

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    In fact, if that kind of intercourse was only as risky as vaginal intercourse, researchers report, HIV cases among gay and bisexual men would shrink dramatically. It would go down even more, they added, if their rates of casual sex declined. - Biology Leaves Gay Men Highly Vulnerable to HIV: Study

    It is trivial that "the majority" of all worldwide transmissions occur through heterosexual contact, as heterosexuals are the vast majority. But by the ratio of each orientation homosexuals are most at risk.

    Or you could have simply quoted the rest of that wiki paragraph:
    The most frequent mode of transmission of HIV is through sexual contact with an infected person. The majority of all transmissions worldwide occur through heterosexual contacts (i.e. sexual contacts between people of the opposite sex); however, the pattern of transmission varies significantly among countries. In the United States, as of 2009, most sexual transmission occurred in men who had sex with men, with this population accounting for 64% of all new cases. -

    James attributed the quote correctly. Perhaps he edited the post since you saw it last.

    Keep yer shorts on.

    Opinions can only harm you if you allow them to. You cannot be emotionally hurt by an opinion unless you think, or are afraid, it may be true. And I am not concerned with coddling anyone's self-doubt. Their own insecurities are their problem.
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Yeah, that's a disease, it doesn't care what your sexual orientation is. Jesus Christ.
  9. Balerion Banned Banned

    Because the harm is not do to the gender of the participants, but the culture of those involved. It's the same reason AIDS is an epidemic in Africa. By that logic, would you say that blackness is to blame? That their culture is no excuse for their skin color? Of course not. Yet you have no qualms highlighting the gay male AIDS epidemic as if it's some mark against that particular (male-male sex) behavior.

    I mean, have you even considered what you're implying?
  10. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Biology Leaves Gay Men Highly Vulnerable to HIV: Study
  11. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Correction: not using condoms leaves gay men vulnerable to HIV. That doesn't contradict the fact that a disease is just a disease, there's no such thing as a gay disease. Maybe we should learn how to fight the disease and not the victims. Besides, all that implies is that we should be encouraging committed relationships and the use of condoms.
  12. Balerion Banned Banned

    And gay black men are most prone of all. Would you also suggest there's something about them, biologically, that makes them higher-risk than non-black gay men? Or would you concede that it has nothing to do with biology?
  13. Balerion Banned Banned

    Nor does it contradict the fact that the reason the gay male community is facing an AIDS epidemic is cultural, not biological.

    I'm really not even sure what Syne is trying to get at here. Since he doesn't have the stomach to actually explain why he thinks homosexuality is wrong, I'm starting to wonder if this is the best he'll do--taking potshots from behind the fence, getting in as many digs as he can before he gets called on it.
  14. Bells Staff Member

    You have yet to explain why, in your moral judgement, homosexual is wrong.

    History always repeats itself and you do directly act on your own moral judgements on this issue.

    Again, what is it that they do to warrant your "moral judgement"?
    Opinion and education, or lack thereof can be changed. One's sexuality cannot.

    Do you understand the difference?

    If I judge your opinion, it is with the knowledge that one's opinion is not permanent. It can easily change with education and education and most importantly, empathy and compassion. One's sexuality is not something that one can change and judging someone based on their sexuality, based on who they are, is simply wrong.

    What harmful behaviour?

    Heterosexuals having unprotected sex is just as harmful. Why do you save your moral judgements for homosexuals?

    Homosexuals are not to blame for how they are born, just as a person of colour is not to blame for how they are born. To blame them for something that is wholly out of their control is a basis of bigotry. To judge them for how they are born, for something that is wholly outside of their control, is bigotry.

    Oh please, can the excuses of why you have your moral judgements against homosexuals. You have declared that homosexuality is not right. You have yet to explain what makes it wrong.

    Hiding behind HIV transmissions and pretending to care by using 'harm' as an excuse for your judging homosexuals for their homosexuality is not working for you.

    Yes, the most frequent mode of transmission is with sexual contact with an infected person without using protection. And I explained how and why some homosexual men do not use protection when having sex.

    And as Spider has correctly pointed out what you clearly refuse to acknowledge is that AIDS/HIV is not caused by homosexuality. It is simply a disease.

    Then stop hiding and answer the question.

    Is this why you were so offended when I called you a homophobe and commented on your homophobia?
  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    From your source:
    Previous research has shown that being on the receiving end of anal intercourse is equally risky whether you're a man or a woman. The risk was estimated at 1.4 percent per sex act with an infected person -- about 18 times more risky than male-to-female vaginal intercourse.​

    It's not an issue of being gay, it's an issue of having anal sex regardless of whether or not you're gay, which, on the whole is a 'wellduh' moment...

    There's a reason we use medical suppositories...
  16. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    From even the greatest of horrors irony is seldom absent.

    Whilst Syne educates us about why homosexuality is morally wrong, I did a little digging into the article(s) that prompted the blog post Syne linked to.

    There are some qoutes from the 'summary points for policy makers' I would like to share:

    Current prevention tools could reduce new HIV infections in MSM substantially, but more and better tools will be needed to achieve an AIDS free generation for young MSM. Stigma, discrimination, and social and health care level homophobia continue to limit access and uptake to essential services from testing to treatment, and from condoms to

    These realities are most clearly demonstrated among minority MSM in the U.S., where black MSM have much higher rates of HIV infection then other MSM, despite having lower individual risks for HIV. But black MSM also have lower rates of testing, health care access, health insurance, and successful HIV treatment—impacts seen at each step of the treatment cascade.

    Studies of the life experiences of MSM and other sexual and gender minorities suggest that psychological distress and risk-taking behavior may result in part from early childhood experiences such as physical and emotional abuse by family, peers, and/or key community leaders (e.g. clergy).

    In most parts of the world, restricted resources and legal barriers complicate delivery of HIV prevention to MSM. Policy changes to align resources with the magnitude of HIV epidemics among MSM, and to allow MSM to safely access medical care and prevention services, are urgently needed to create an enabling environment for prevention, and an adequately resourced prevention response.

    Homophobia is the product of deeply ingrained views on gender roles, religion and national identity, and must be addressed at a systemic and structural level.

    Legal equality is important, but not sufficient; it needs to be supported by real efforts to build acceptance of human diversity.

    Exciting new possibilities for prevention are likely to be unavailable to many MSM, who in many parts of the world are stigmatized, persecuted and ignored.

    Despite being less risky, Black MSM in the UK and the USA were more likely to be HIV positive than were other MSM. This paradox is partly explained by the finding that HIV-positive black MSM in each country were less likely to start HIV treatment than men of other races and ethnicities. U.S. HIV-positive black MSM were also less likely to have health insurance, have a high CD4 count, adhere to anti-retroviral treatment, or be virally suppressed than were other US HIV-positive MSM. These low rates of successful treatment for black MSM are driving new HIV infections in black MSM networks and communities.

    Policies that criminalize homosexuality, notably in the Caribbean, are associated with increased prevalence of HIV infection in black MSM.

    As of 2011 only 87 countries have reported prevalence of HIV in MSM. Data are most sparse for the Middle East and Africa, regions where criminal sanctions against same-sex behavior can make epidemiological assessments challenging. All countries should include MSM in epidemiologic tracking of HIV.

    We lay out a strategy to greatly improve the response to HIV among MSM globally. For this strategy we looked at inputs like epidemiology, social settings, and clinical factors. Then we suggest a four part approach:
    1. Overcome barriers to prevention, treatment and care through decriminalization, and targeted programs to reduce homophobia
    2. Expand access to evidence based services, bringing to scale prevention and treatment programs with evidence of efficacy
    3. Develop and implement a coordinated donor and recipient plan to expand services strategically to maximize the impact of funding.
    4. Set targets, measure progress and hold stakeholders accountable for progress.​

    Astute observers may notice some recurring themes, like, for example:
    Peoples moral judgements on MSM are part of the problem.
    People passing laws based on their moral judgement that MSM is wrong are part of the problem.
    The first steps to solving the problem are legal equality and acceptance..
  17. Balerion Banned Banned

    Trippy, Syne was obviously grabbed by the misleading headline and failed to actually read the article.

    This is what I was talking about when I said it was a cultural issue. Discrimination forcing gay men into anonymous promiscuity certainly is one of those cultural issues. So is gay denial. The whole "on the down low" gay-but-not-gay lifestyle of black urban men stems from the emasculation and dehumanization of gay men in that culture, and includes excuses for why condoms are a no-no.

    I have to say, at this point I am a bit surprised the newest mod hasn't taken the opportunity to explain himself. He was the one who said he'd be happy to discuss it in a new thread--which is why I made this one--yet he's balking.

    I think if he plans on being a moderator here, he should have to explain himself. Assuage our fears that we're being moderated by a homophobe.
  18. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

  19. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    But an anti-anti-gay attitude is justifiable, and useful?

    It certainly appears to be useful to him.

    So you feel harmed by Syne's attitudes here? How?

    Or is that you place all who don't approve of homosexuality into the same group, assuming that they are all the same, doing the exact same things? And that as such, people like Syne go to anti-gay conventions and burn down the houses of gays etc.?

    Per you, is it that -

    Not approving of homosexuality = going on anti-gay conventions + refusing to do business with gays + posting hate-speech propaganda on the internet + etc.

  20. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    There is one kind of sex that is purportedly beyond such objectification, namely tantric sex. But actual tantric sex requires very advanced practitioners who don't objectify (and they don't do it for pleasure or love either; doing so would automatically disqualify them).

    Shooting heroin in one's veins is pleasurable too. For some people, sometimes. Doesn't mean that shooting heroin up one's veins is inherently pleasurable.

    A particular reduction of scope of what is to be considered a person's identity.

    And that's what you see ... And you are taking no responsiblity for what you are seeing - you simply blame it on others.

    What higher purpose do you see to those? Liberation from suffering?
    Having sex doesn't even exempt people from having to pay taxes nor from being subject to traffic laws, what to speak of anything else.

    I'm having a laff, sort of, seeing how you are creating your own suffering here. You express total certainty about things (e.g. "Homosexuality is not immoral"), and then when someone disagrees with that, you get upset. I'm bewildered why anyone would do that. It's like deliberately eating poison.
  21. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Ever told a person, or witnessed a person being told that he or she is "too sensitive" and "should grow a thicker skin"?
    That's a good example of people showing they have differing ideas about what constitutes harm - one person felt hurt, and the other thought that they should not.

    I only pointed to the easily verifiable fact that people have different ideas of what constitutes harm, and that this plays a part in any discussion about harm.

    Let me parse that sentence for you:

    but a few people in positions of power
    telling others what is supposedly right and what is wrong

    I was talking about people in positions of power. Such as moderators.

    Who said I don't like the nature of the debate? You.

    My response was to Fraggle. Fraggle makes blanket statements about all religions, and a good portion of philosophy. So I take for granted that he is thoroughly knowledgeable of all religious scriptures and philosophical writings too, down to chapter and verse. Because of that, I see no need to go into any detail in conversations with him, as for such a thoroughly knowledgeable person (for it must be that he is thoroughly knowledgeable, otherwise, he couldn't criticize religion and philosophy the way he does), hints are more than enough.
    For some others, I expand as requested.

    My sentence was - "The common problem in "sex for pleasure" - whether it is between two men, two women, a man and a woman, a human and a thing, or whichever combination or number there may be - is the objectification of self and other in the process." Clearly, I wasn't singling out gay men. I was singling out "sex for pleasure."

    Already addressed earlier:

    That upset is all in your mind. I'm not upset.

    That's just your perception.
  22. Balerion Banned Banned

    We're not talking about hurt feelings and bruised egos. We're talking about actual psychological and physical harm.

    No, you attempted to render the term useless by saying anyone could apply it to anything.

    Who is whining about the nature of the debate? You.

    But you haven't expanded. You never do. Fraggle as much as begged you to do elaborate, and you've done nothing but excuse yourself since.

    Uh, you forgot the part directly before that. Let me refresh your memory:

    Now how, exactly, are homosexuals harming themselves? Or are you retracting this statement?

    No, you're simply repeating your previously claims. I want to know how, exactly, there is no sex without objectification. If you hold this to be true, certainly you can explain yourself, how you reached this conclusion, what you base it on...?

    You're complaining about it. If it's no bother, what's the point of complaining?

    No, that's how you come across.
  23. Balerion Banned Banned

    How do you know there is such a thing as "actual" tantra? How do you know it isn't just pretentious people excusing their sexuality by giving it a false air of spirituality?

    What the hell are you talking about?

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